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https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/video-is-released-in-police-shooting-of-dylan-noble-in-fresno.amp.html?client=ms-android
My question is this. Watching the body cam from multiple POVs in the same situation, same information available as those officers had would you have shot yourself? Regardless of whether or not you believe you would have pulled the trigger do you think the shooting was justified based on the content of the video? Specifically, do you think the third and fourth shots were necessary or justified, again regardless of whether you would have taken the first or second? And finally if you would not have shot what do you believe would have been appropriate/effective and why?
Personally I believe the first shot fired was justified under the circumstances and believe that in the same situation I would have taken that first shot. I don't believe any of the subsequent shots were either necessary or appropriate, (although I admit the second shot might still be defensible under certain circumstances) In fact they seem to be the result of a lack of tactical proficiency and possibly even panic. Shouldn't the officer who fired rushed to restrain the suspect and provide first aid/secure the weapon as necessary while his partner pulled security?
My question is this. Watching the body cam from multiple POVs in the same situation, same information available as those officers had would you have shot yourself? Regardless of whether or not you believe you would have pulled the trigger do you think the shooting was justified based on the content of the video? Specifically, do you think the third and fourth shots were necessary or justified, again regardless of whether you would have taken the first or second? And finally if you would not have shot what do you believe would have been appropriate/effective and why?
Personally I believe the first shot fired was justified under the circumstances and believe that in the same situation I would have taken that first shot. I don't believe any of the subsequent shots were either necessary or appropriate, (although I admit the second shot might still be defensible under certain circumstances) In fact they seem to be the result of a lack of tactical proficiency and possibly even panic. Shouldn't the officer who fired rushed to restrain the suspect and provide first aid/secure the weapon as necessary while his partner pulled security?
Police
Law Enforcement
Violence
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 14
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I would have shot him in the leg or foot. I don't understand why Cops are trained to shoot three times in the chest...why not just wound them and stop the killings?
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TSgt (Join to see)
Because shooting in the leg or the foot, not only is hard to do especially with a moving target but considered "Maiming" the target. A LE officer can get charged with Manslaughter for aiming and shooting intentionally at someone's leg. We are trained to shoot to stop the threat that lead us to shoot in the first place, not to injure or maim. That is why 2-3 center mass shots is normal for handgun training. In case of the military, we are trained to fire "2 to the chest, 1 to the head." Also to point out, people can die from being shot in the leg as well.
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Capt Michael Greene
I imagine that LEO are trained to shoot to kill, always, for three reasons. First, if you aim for a tiny, moving, leg or foot, you're going to miss, and the bullet goes into the neighborhood. So aim for the center of the mass. Second, when you wound the bad guy, you're just pissing him off. Third, a dead man can't dispute your story.
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TSgt William Meyer
Capt Michael Greene - Cops are taught to shoot center mass and until there is no longer a threat. Shooting a person in the arm or leg is only done on TV.
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Should one approach a wounded animal who is still showing its teeth? In this case, potentially hiding his teeth? Should one trust his life to a person who continues, even when shot once, with his charade? Yes it's a Suicide by Cop scenario. But he doesn't love cops either. He continues to display the threat. He knows it. If both hands were presented and open then yes, he would be alive today. He didn't want to live.
Chief Brown in Dallas made a great analogy of the difficulties we face. He said that everything no wants to deal with is given to the cops. Loose dogs, give it to the cops, mental health, give to the cops, parental issues, give it to the cops. So in this case both mental health and parental issues were forced on the cops. Believe me, no one benefits on this. The cops get second and third guessed by their bosses, peers, community. All say, "I would have done this or that..." The DA decides whether to prosecute the officers. The Feds do the same. The family sues the agency and the officers if possible. The cameras showed it all play out. 60 times he's told to comply? But it's still not enough.
Mr Sterling is physically tackled. He is shot at the closest range; contact. Everyone is horrified. Even when it's a cop robot doing the killing its wrong.
Chief Brown in Dallas made a great analogy of the difficulties we face. He said that everything no wants to deal with is given to the cops. Loose dogs, give it to the cops, mental health, give to the cops, parental issues, give it to the cops. So in this case both mental health and parental issues were forced on the cops. Believe me, no one benefits on this. The cops get second and third guessed by their bosses, peers, community. All say, "I would have done this or that..." The DA decides whether to prosecute the officers. The Feds do the same. The family sues the agency and the officers if possible. The cameras showed it all play out. 60 times he's told to comply? But it's still not enough.
Mr Sterling is physically tackled. He is shot at the closest range; contact. Everyone is horrified. Even when it's a cop robot doing the killing its wrong.
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Let me admit I have no experience as an LEO. Tough job. Shitty shoot.
True, the police were out in force looking for a guy walking around with a rifle, but there was no reason to think the black truck had anything to do with that. I think the patrolman had no reason to suspect Noble was the rifle man.
First, the black truck hesitated pulling over. Could be a million reasons for that, and probably this wasn't a factor.
Running the plate, they got no warrants or notices. So I wonder why the cops drew weapons even before the cars actually stopped? They must have been primed for action by something I don't see.
Noble acts weird walking around. He sometimes hides his hand.
Then Officer Number One shoots him. For having a hidden hand.
Seems to me the officers, three of them at least, should have taken up flanking positions using the vehicles as cover, and surrounded the boy. They could have just waited him out. What was the hurry?
Shotgun guy could have switched to taser, especially after Noble was on the ground. But nobody's perfect. Lots of adrenaline flowing.
One problem with a gun-filled society is that when adrenaline flows, people die.
That's my really limited view. I note that Fresno has a very high shoot rate. I read that Fresno PD kills twice as many people as Chicago or LAPD per capita.
True, the police were out in force looking for a guy walking around with a rifle, but there was no reason to think the black truck had anything to do with that. I think the patrolman had no reason to suspect Noble was the rifle man.
First, the black truck hesitated pulling over. Could be a million reasons for that, and probably this wasn't a factor.
Running the plate, they got no warrants or notices. So I wonder why the cops drew weapons even before the cars actually stopped? They must have been primed for action by something I don't see.
Noble acts weird walking around. He sometimes hides his hand.
Then Officer Number One shoots him. For having a hidden hand.
Seems to me the officers, three of them at least, should have taken up flanking positions using the vehicles as cover, and surrounded the boy. They could have just waited him out. What was the hurry?
Shotgun guy could have switched to taser, especially after Noble was on the ground. But nobody's perfect. Lots of adrenaline flowing.
One problem with a gun-filled society is that when adrenaline flows, people die.
That's my really limited view. I note that Fresno has a very high shoot rate. I read that Fresno PD kills twice as many people as Chicago or LAPD per capita.
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SSG Byron Hewett
They verified the license plate.
The Officers were too far away to use a Taser, Tasers are a close quarters defensive weapon and are only effective to the length of wire connected between the probes and the taser or up close physical contact of the taser from the Officer to the offender.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
The Officers were too far away to use a Taser, Tasers are a close quarters defensive weapon and are only effective to the length of wire connected between the probes and the taser or up close physical contact of the taser from the Officer to the offender.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
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Capt Michael Greene
SSG Byron Hewett - Understood. But once he was on the ground they could have tasered him easily.
They could have surrounded him, protected by vehicles, then just waited. They could have started talking. Too often, I get the impression that some LEOs think "This is taking too long, just shoot him."
They could have surrounded him, protected by vehicles, then just waited. They could have started talking. Too often, I get the impression that some LEOs think "This is taking too long, just shoot him."
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SSG Byron Hewett
The Officers were too far away to use a Taser, Tasers are a close quarters defensive weapon and are only effective to the length of wire connected between the probes and the taser or up close physical contact of the taser from the Officer to the offender.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
Maybe you could get hooked up for ride along in your local area, just go down to the PD and ask and then you'll have great opportunity to ask a lot of questions and get to see a lot of firsthand stuff during the ride along.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
Maybe you could get hooked up for ride along in your local area, just go down to the PD and ask and then you'll have great opportunity to ask a lot of questions and get to see a lot of firsthand stuff during the ride along.
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SSG Byron Hewett
Capt Michael Greene - not in this case the offender kept reaching behind him and into his waistband which made him an active threat and he failed to comply with instructions then he kept moving toward the Officers, Tasers only carry so much wire for shooting distance, remember a weapon is only good to the maximum effective range the farther away you can keep an offender who is an active threat and keep a barrier if possible between you the safer you'll be.
He could have had knife so close quarters would have been bad he could have had a pistol so close quarters would be bad and distance would be safer because you'll have a better chance and more opportunities to place yourself somewhere safe or keep a barrier between you and the offender.
I'm just speaking from experience.
He could have had knife so close quarters would have been bad he could have had a pistol so close quarters would be bad and distance would be safer because you'll have a better chance and more opportunities to place yourself somewhere safe or keep a barrier between you and the offender.
I'm just speaking from experience.
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I say with 2 or more cops covering him..one should have used the taser while the others covered with weapons drawn. If he pulled anything out after taser shot then one would have to take the shot at him. I understand people getting upset with law enforcement..but there is always, even in the heat of battle, a way to resolve the issue.
Chuck D
p.s. I do support our law enforcement 100%
Chuck D
p.s. I do support our law enforcement 100%
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SSG Byron Hewett
The Officers were too far away to use a Taser, Tasers are a close quarters defensive weapon and are only effective to the length of wire connected between the probes and the taser or up close physical contact of the taser from the Officer to the offender.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
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SSG Byron Hewett
The Officers were too far away to use a Taser, Tasers are a close quarters defensive weapon and are only effective to the length of wire connected between the probes and the taser or up close physical contact of the taser from the Officer to the offender.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
Tasers do have just like any weapon maximum effective range and close up effective range.
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