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https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/video-is-released-in-police-shooting-of-dylan-noble-in-fresno.amp.html?client=ms-android
My question is this. Watching the body cam from multiple POVs in the same situation, same information available as those officers had would you have shot yourself? Regardless of whether or not you believe you would have pulled the trigger do you think the shooting was justified based on the content of the video? Specifically, do you think the third and fourth shots were necessary or justified, again regardless of whether you would have taken the first or second? And finally if you would not have shot what do you believe would have been appropriate/effective and why?
Personally I believe the first shot fired was justified under the circumstances and believe that in the same situation I would have taken that first shot. I don't believe any of the subsequent shots were either necessary or appropriate, (although I admit the second shot might still be defensible under certain circumstances) In fact they seem to be the result of a lack of tactical proficiency and possibly even panic. Shouldn't the officer who fired rushed to restrain the suspect and provide first aid/secure the weapon as necessary while his partner pulled security?
My question is this. Watching the body cam from multiple POVs in the same situation, same information available as those officers had would you have shot yourself? Regardless of whether or not you believe you would have pulled the trigger do you think the shooting was justified based on the content of the video? Specifically, do you think the third and fourth shots were necessary or justified, again regardless of whether you would have taken the first or second? And finally if you would not have shot what do you believe would have been appropriate/effective and why?
Personally I believe the first shot fired was justified under the circumstances and believe that in the same situation I would have taken that first shot. I don't believe any of the subsequent shots were either necessary or appropriate, (although I admit the second shot might still be defensible under certain circumstances) In fact they seem to be the result of a lack of tactical proficiency and possibly even panic. Shouldn't the officer who fired rushed to restrain the suspect and provide first aid/secure the weapon as necessary while his partner pulled security?
Police
Law Enforcement
Violence
Rules of Engagement (ROE)
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 14
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Not a single one of us reading this can say definitively one way or the other because not a single one of us was standing there with a gun in hand and seeing what that officer saw or perceived that he saw.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
Chris Rock - How not to get your ass beat by cops.
WATCH THIS AMAZING VIDEO!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Z8I_fx_fc
Capt Michael Greene - Give me a fucking break Sir! Read the DOJ's own statistics. Black offenders commit the lion's share of violent crime in this nation.
13% of the population accounts for almost 80% of the violent crime. In Charlotte NC, when there is a robbery, a murder , a rape , or an assault, the description of and the video of the crime indicates that 8 out of 10 times the perp is "An African-American male 5'8-6'1, between the ages of 16 and 30, wearing braids and a dark hoodie."
What part of ... Assault, shoplifting, breaking into cars, robbery, rape, assault on a female, selling dope, possession with intent, possession of a firearm by a felon, probation violation, driving without a license.... Is against the law do they not understand. Perhaps and I am just guessing here, perhaps IF they did not break the law they would not get arrested, beat the fuck up or shot! When I have a African American customer, wanting to buy a gun I can tell before they say a single word if they will pass a FBI-NICS Federal background check or not. I am about 95% right over the past 11 years. After I talk to them for less tan 5 minutes, my guess rate goes up to 99%. It is SAD that they respond with Chest thumping pride that they "Don't got no felony CONVICTIONS." Or "Does my Juvenile record count?"
We will NEVER FIX this if we continue to have the attitude that you have which makes excuses for this. We need to empower local leaders to try to establish programs that encourage and teach young black males how to be responsible Men and Fathers. those programs MUST also have a punishment aspect to show that crime is NOT an option. The revolving door needs to be chained shut and after three strikes you are OUT for life...PERIOD.
I understand you want to blame the government for everything, but NO ONE forces these thugs to be thugs, and thus become a target of opportunity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQLCF4Tiqg4
13% of the population accounts for almost 80% of the violent crime. In Charlotte NC, when there is a robbery, a murder , a rape , or an assault, the description of and the video of the crime indicates that 8 out of 10 times the perp is "An African-American male 5'8-6'1, between the ages of 16 and 30, wearing braids and a dark hoodie."
What part of ... Assault, shoplifting, breaking into cars, robbery, rape, assault on a female, selling dope, possession with intent, possession of a firearm by a felon, probation violation, driving without a license.... Is against the law do they not understand. Perhaps and I am just guessing here, perhaps IF they did not break the law they would not get arrested, beat the fuck up or shot! When I have a African American customer, wanting to buy a gun I can tell before they say a single word if they will pass a FBI-NICS Federal background check or not. I am about 95% right over the past 11 years. After I talk to them for less tan 5 minutes, my guess rate goes up to 99%. It is SAD that they respond with Chest thumping pride that they "Don't got no felony CONVICTIONS." Or "Does my Juvenile record count?"
We will NEVER FIX this if we continue to have the attitude that you have which makes excuses for this. We need to empower local leaders to try to establish programs that encourage and teach young black males how to be responsible Men and Fathers. those programs MUST also have a punishment aspect to show that crime is NOT an option. The revolving door needs to be chained shut and after three strikes you are OUT for life...PERIOD.
I understand you want to blame the government for everything, but NO ONE forces these thugs to be thugs, and thus become a target of opportunity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQLCF4Tiqg4
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Capt Michael Greene
SSG Roger Ayscue - Your instant anger is easy to understand, and so you missed everything that could have been inferred from what I said. I gave no excuses. I offered a starting point for understanding. Only by understanding can we begin to solve a problem. Or, we can just lock up all the black men and... Come to think of it, that's what we've been doing for decades.
But the issue is Dylan Noble. Your question was where is the outrage? You didn't like my answer. There it is.
But the issue is Dylan Noble. Your question was where is the outrage? You didn't like my answer. There it is.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
Capt Michael Greene - it is more frustration than anger. Making excuses for, and infantalizing them. All I would want to see is to hold each person accountable for their own actions, and IF they break the law then they should be locked up. God knows I dont want to see anyone locked up. I want to see families back together. I want to see kids with both a daddy and a mom. But we have a POTUS that is a race baiting SOB that could care less about white people. BUT then, he could care less about black people too. I want a colorblind society. it will never happen, because those that SAY they want it, who profit from and take advantage of the system and the quotas.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
Capt Michael Greene SSG Ryan R. Wait a minute though... Isn't Obama, and Isn't Hillary being touted as "Uniters"? WELL...NOW WE CAN SEE...If you ARE WHITE there is NO JUSTICE in the Obama Justice Department. IF the AG is not concerned about this, then how much creedance can we give to the findings of the FBI, who's director convicted Hillary Clinton of all charges, right before he declined to press charges...how much creedance can we give to Hillary's innocence.
Liberal Democrats...skewing the outcome of Justice since the Great Society. PANDERING TO BUY BLACK VOTES...Shameless and dishonest.
Liberal Democrats...skewing the outcome of Justice since the Great Society. PANDERING TO BUY BLACK VOTES...Shameless and dishonest.
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When I was assigned to security duties, my superiors told me that any person not fully complying with the direction of my Marines was marching down a road that may lead to the application of deadly force.
The typical reaction time to an increase in threat posture is about 2/10ths of a second. That is not a round down range, that is realizing the posture has changed, now you must orient yourself to what the change means, formulate an appropriate reaction, and put it into motion, (the OODA Loop). That can put you a full two to four seconds behind your opponent. That means he can have 1-2 rounds down range at you, or he can cross 40-80 feet of open space to stick a knife in you.
It is a Hollywood myth that center mass shots are necessarily immediately incapacitating. I have heart shot elk that have continued to run a hundred of my paces or more, then fully stood up on my approach, more than two minutes after the shot. Had I not kept distance and obstacles between the animal and myself, I could have easily been seriously injured or killed. I know hunters that have been badly mauled by feral pigs that had fatal center mass shots. A second shot is not a separate decision, it is part and parcel of the decision to apply deadly force. It is my understanding that the human brain is capable of directing the body's movements for almost four minutes, without heart function. Given that information, how do you know that a suspect that goes down is incapacitated?
We need to teach children to fully comply with police commands, offer no resistance, and save their outrage for the police station with the officers' supervisors. I'd rather be alive and spending my award from the lawsuit, than dead.
The typical reaction time to an increase in threat posture is about 2/10ths of a second. That is not a round down range, that is realizing the posture has changed, now you must orient yourself to what the change means, formulate an appropriate reaction, and put it into motion, (the OODA Loop). That can put you a full two to four seconds behind your opponent. That means he can have 1-2 rounds down range at you, or he can cross 40-80 feet of open space to stick a knife in you.
It is a Hollywood myth that center mass shots are necessarily immediately incapacitating. I have heart shot elk that have continued to run a hundred of my paces or more, then fully stood up on my approach, more than two minutes after the shot. Had I not kept distance and obstacles between the animal and myself, I could have easily been seriously injured or killed. I know hunters that have been badly mauled by feral pigs that had fatal center mass shots. A second shot is not a separate decision, it is part and parcel of the decision to apply deadly force. It is my understanding that the human brain is capable of directing the body's movements for almost four minutes, without heart function. Given that information, how do you know that a suspect that goes down is incapacitated?
We need to teach children to fully comply with police commands, offer no resistance, and save their outrage for the police station with the officers' supervisors. I'd rather be alive and spending my award from the lawsuit, than dead.
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TSgt (Join to see)
That's not to say he could have been on drugs. An average size male high on PCP could easily take 10 shots at center mass and keep moving. Like you said, the OODA loop is always revolving and circumstances can dramatically change in a second
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SPC (Join to see)
#Alllivesmatter, but really they're too busy planning and executing ambushes against police officers in Baton Rouge to comment.
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Law enforcement is dealing with life and death decisions with split second changes in the threat level. The first clue you are a bad guy is hostility and non-compliance. If a police officer told me to paint my butt blue and do the antler dance, I would paint my butt blue and do the antler dance. If I have a problem with his conduct and how he treats me, I will deal with it later, at the station, with his/her chain of command. If it is truly outrageous, I will enjoy spending the award from my lawsuit. No matter what I will be alive.
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Capt Michael Greene
Not arguing, but just pointing out: You're smart. Noble was not. He was killed for being stupid?
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Second guessing the people on the scene is easy. I may or may not have shot Mr. Noble. It depends on if I felt that my life (or someone else's) was in danger at the time. Personally I probably would not have shot him when he was that far away however my hesitation has almost gotten me killed a couple of times. As far as firing multiple rounds I was taught for many years to fire at least two rounds to center mass. If he was still moving I was taught to fire two more. The purpose of firing is to end the threat and you should keep firing until the threat has ended which is also a judgement call.
Tasers sound like an easy solution to everything but they are not. They are only good at short distances and a number of things can cause them to fail to do the job.
Tasers sound like an easy solution to everything but they are not. They are only good at short distances and a number of things can cause them to fail to do the job.
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This is an unfortunate case of suicide by cop.
For whatever reason Mr Noble refused direct and lawful orders from Officers due to his actions of reaching behind his back and into his waist band several times Officers were left with virtually no options because Mr Noble was non compliant he was reaching behind his back and into his waistband where Officers could not see what he was attempting to get at or retrieve which caused himself to become a threat to everyone involved and everyone in the surrounding area in their location.
In this case there is no question that due to Mr Noble's actions and his refusal to comply the legal and lawful orders given by law enforcement officers, Mr Noble placed himself and everyone else in that area in danger, the Officers involved in the shooting were legally and lawfully justified in their actions because they gave clear and concise instructions, they gave clear warning of the consequences of what would happen if he continued to fail to follow instructions.
Mr Noble clearly understood the instructions given and deliberately continued to disobey lawful orders given to him by Officers.
The Officers involved in this incident are clearly justified in their actions, their actions were NOT excessive because Mr Noble continued to act as threat. When Mr Noble was clearly no longer a threat Officers did request an ambulance code 3 which means that the ambulance needed the put a rush on it.
From what I could see in the video they did pull security because that's what they starting to do when the video ended.
Now as a matter of protocol and policy because they did have enough Officers on scene and the area was basically secure they would have started to search, secure, and begin aid until the ambulance arrived.
One thing to remember is law enforcement trading closely resemble the military training and protocols but because they are not soldiers and they are not in a combat zone, the way law enforcement agencies do things are going to be totally different in many ways and the training will be similar because the law enforcement agencies are considered paramilitary organizations.
In the 20 years I spent in the Army and the 10 years in law enforcement these guys did it by the book and never crossed any lines, when shooting incident investigation is all said and if it comes down to that it will more than likely be deemed a good shoot.
Will there be some or a lot of flack from the committee .... Probably a little if there is more then it will be a media fest and it will be because leftists like AL Sharpton send in the protesters and haters to try and start up another Ferguson, Orlando, Dallas or any number or other places where the mob got out of hand in recent months and years. So a little bit of caution would be wise and to stay way from those areas unless called up by your unit to
assist.
For whatever reason Mr Noble refused direct and lawful orders from Officers due to his actions of reaching behind his back and into his waist band several times Officers were left with virtually no options because Mr Noble was non compliant he was reaching behind his back and into his waistband where Officers could not see what he was attempting to get at or retrieve which caused himself to become a threat to everyone involved and everyone in the surrounding area in their location.
In this case there is no question that due to Mr Noble's actions and his refusal to comply the legal and lawful orders given by law enforcement officers, Mr Noble placed himself and everyone else in that area in danger, the Officers involved in the shooting were legally and lawfully justified in their actions because they gave clear and concise instructions, they gave clear warning of the consequences of what would happen if he continued to fail to follow instructions.
Mr Noble clearly understood the instructions given and deliberately continued to disobey lawful orders given to him by Officers.
The Officers involved in this incident are clearly justified in their actions, their actions were NOT excessive because Mr Noble continued to act as threat. When Mr Noble was clearly no longer a threat Officers did request an ambulance code 3 which means that the ambulance needed the put a rush on it.
From what I could see in the video they did pull security because that's what they starting to do when the video ended.
Now as a matter of protocol and policy because they did have enough Officers on scene and the area was basically secure they would have started to search, secure, and begin aid until the ambulance arrived.
One thing to remember is law enforcement trading closely resemble the military training and protocols but because they are not soldiers and they are not in a combat zone, the way law enforcement agencies do things are going to be totally different in many ways and the training will be similar because the law enforcement agencies are considered paramilitary organizations.
In the 20 years I spent in the Army and the 10 years in law enforcement these guys did it by the book and never crossed any lines, when shooting incident investigation is all said and if it comes down to that it will more than likely be deemed a good shoot.
Will there be some or a lot of flack from the committee .... Probably a little if there is more then it will be a media fest and it will be because leftists like AL Sharpton send in the protesters and haters to try and start up another Ferguson, Orlando, Dallas or any number or other places where the mob got out of hand in recent months and years. So a little bit of caution would be wise and to stay way from those areas unless called up by your unit to
assist.
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Yes, joking around like you have a gun like that in today's world with all this police shootings going on. As many times as they told him "both hands on the air" I'm surprised they didn't shoot earlier.
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SPC (Join to see)
TSgt (Join to see) given that the majority of our own training on detainee operations since the beginning of GWoT actually was sourced from civilian LEOs and COs (we've always operated more in a LEO capacity than anything else in Iraq particularly from '05 on) I can't imagine that our procedures are too far out of line from civilian procedures. I also, based on the video see no evidence that the officer armed with the pistol ever fired at all. Noble was shot four times, the officer with the shotgun fires four times, at roughly 30 second intervals following the initial shot. Three of the shots occurred after the suspect was on the ground, again roughly 30 second intervals between shots.
I do have extensive experience with shotguns, I have been hunting upland game birds and competeing in both sporting clays and bird dog field trials since I was 12 and have won numerous competitions. My Mossberg has about a four pound trigger pull, my break action sporting clays guns about half that and the rifles I hunt varmints and big game with have exactly 1.2 pound pulls. That being said... Like all military and LEO Personnel I practice trigger discipline and the firearm should never go off just because I panicked so especially given the time between shots I have a tough time buying into a "hair trigger" especially since if I recall correctly Mossberg sets their shotgun triggers from factory at around 3.6 or 3.8 pounds without take up.
I do have extensive experience with shotguns, I have been hunting upland game birds and competeing in both sporting clays and bird dog field trials since I was 12 and have won numerous competitions. My Mossberg has about a four pound trigger pull, my break action sporting clays guns about half that and the rifles I hunt varmints and big game with have exactly 1.2 pound pulls. That being said... Like all military and LEO Personnel I practice trigger discipline and the firearm should never go off just because I panicked so especially given the time between shots I have a tough time buying into a "hair trigger" especially since if I recall correctly Mossberg sets their shotgun triggers from factory at around 3.6 or 3.8 pounds without take up.
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Capt Michael Greene
Shoot earlier? For what? Not obeying? Walking weird? The first shot was because he sometimes hid his hand. Not a death penalty crime.
In my limited POV, with no experience, my Monday morning second guessing on this situation is they could have surrounded him from the cover of multiple vehicles and then just waited him out or tasered him.
In my limited POV, with no experience, my Monday morning second guessing on this situation is they could have surrounded him from the cover of multiple vehicles and then just waited him out or tasered him.
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TSgt (Join to see)
Capt Michael Greene - Yes shoot earlier, in my opinion he was acting as if he had a weapon behind his back. Those police officers had no way of telling. If he had a gun this could be a different story. Noble was given many opportunities to not be dumb. He was asking to get shot. The taser would be a reasonable action, but given the circumstances with noble playing pick a boo with his right hand behind his back it was a good shoot initially. If he got shot on the ground idk what that's all about
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TSgt (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - My opinion of them not going into to first aid right away is this: 1. That was most likely that officers first time shooting someone. Yes his training should kick in and react as according to the situation, but I can imagine the first time you shoot someone, you most likely have a little bit of an "oh shit" factor in your head and he just froze and turned into a broken record. 2. From what I saw, Noble was still reaching into his back or near his waist line. So now imagine if there was a gun there. Officer #1 steps up to apply first aid, but gets shot. Now there are two dead people.
I'm not saying am an expert or anything but in my countless firing courses I've been through, I like to think I have a pretty good idea of how a weapon operates seeing as I carry one on a day to day. My M9 Beretta also has a trigger pull of around 3 pounds when in single action. Now I don't know how often you fire your weapons but a 3 pound trigger pull is nothing. A flinch of the finger could easily set that off. But yes he should have better trigger discipline and his finger shouldn't have been around the trigger, unless he was going to shoot. So lets just go with he was a well trained officer, who was justifiably willing to shoot a threat directed towards himself and his other officers and any one close by. One of the 8 reasons to use deadly force is Inherit Right of Self Defense and Defense of Others. He applied that. If Noble would have had a gun, this article could read something entirely different.
I'm not saying am an expert or anything but in my countless firing courses I've been through, I like to think I have a pretty good idea of how a weapon operates seeing as I carry one on a day to day. My M9 Beretta also has a trigger pull of around 3 pounds when in single action. Now I don't know how often you fire your weapons but a 3 pound trigger pull is nothing. A flinch of the finger could easily set that off. But yes he should have better trigger discipline and his finger shouldn't have been around the trigger, unless he was going to shoot. So lets just go with he was a well trained officer, who was justifiably willing to shoot a threat directed towards himself and his other officers and any one close by. One of the 8 reasons to use deadly force is Inherit Right of Self Defense and Defense of Others. He applied that. If Noble would have had a gun, this article could read something entirely different.
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Since I was not there, I have no way of knowing how my reaction would have been had I been one of those cops.
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