Posted on Jun 14, 2016
Would bum-rushing a shooter like Orlando be the best thing to do??
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I don't get it. 49 dead (not counting the shooter), and another 50 wounded. That's 100 people that got shot. If HALF of those people had rushed him, he would have never been able to shoot more than what he had in a single (or double, if he was shooting a gun in both hands) clip. Yes, people would have still died. But not nearly so many as did. Someone would have gotten to him as soon as his clip was empty, if not before. And then they'd pile on. If I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd like to think I'd at least try to get the bastard. Is it time that we start telling people to rush in situations like that? Would you?
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It may work....but people need to understand that there is a good chance they may be killed or injured doing so. That's why we call folks who do that "heroes". They knew they were staring death in the eye....but went anyway.
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You don't have to worry about bum-rushing if you're always carrying. Fact.
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LTC Paul Labrador
During the active shooter situation at El Paso VA/WBAMC last year, I was stuck in my office during the lockdown. I never felt so helpless in that I had no way to defend myself if the shooter busted through my door.
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Sgt John Skibenes
Its really hard sometimes to do nothing. Which is why bum-rushing seems like the answer.
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Fear of death is, by far, worse than death itself. And there are many a folk where their urge for flight is stronger than the urge to fight. Also, if the shooter was in a location where he could not be rushed and/or if he could not be seen, then most peoples thoughts are just to run or cower and hide and pray they don't get spotted.
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I am always shocked when incidents like this happen....I constantly debate 9/11 frequently with friends for the same reason. I know that fear can be crippling sometimes, and a lot of people fight or flight seems to be set on sit still. Me personally, with some of the situations I have found myself in, I have always been one to jump in. I have always been able to put myself before others, but not everybody is geared that way.
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LTC Paul Labrador
I also think, being military, we have kind of self selected as action takers. One, we volunteered to join an organization that may lead to our death or disability. Two, we voluntarily joined an organization knowing that we would subordinate our personal good for the good of the group. It doesn't surprise me that folks in our circles would wonder why people didn't take action.....but then we forget that civilians are not necessarily wired like us, or trained to take action like us.
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Situation dictates the action!!! How hard is it to kill 25+ people in a night club? Pretty dayum easy! Picture this, open area, like most clubs are, music playing and people dancing not thinking something like that could happen. Someone walks in with, lets say a handgun with a 15 round magazine, with extra magazines... gunman pull out the weapon and start shooting into the crowd. 5 rounds are going to go off before anybody takes notice. Another 10 rounds into a crowd that's trying to get away from where there shots are coming from. During the panic, people are goung to get trampled, pushed down, or not make it out in time. Gunman switch magazines and continue shooting into the crowd. So yes, it's pretty easy as you can see. In a school setting, they are taught to hide, barracade, and rush as a last result. Different dynamics, but the outcome can be quite simular.
Unfortunately, this is the culture we live in today. I would rather carry and have a fighting chance at saving my live and innocent people around me, than take my chances and not have one when I need it.
Unfortunately, this is the culture we live in today. I would rather carry and have a fighting chance at saving my live and innocent people around me, than take my chances and not have one when I need it.
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I often ask myself, what would I do in a situation like this???
for everyone that thinks they would be a hero in the situation, dying honorably to save others and themselves, I ask you this, how long would it take you to just figure out what exactly is going on??
Have you ever been caught off guard?
gunshots in a club or action movie are first thought to be part of the sound effects....or, so as been reported.
as for the theoretical "good guy with a gun"....if I am standing in the club, and I hear gunshots, and you pull your piece in the name of freedom....you are probably getting tackled/pummeled by a veteran, who might not have totally assessed the situation...
for everyone that thinks they would be a hero in the situation, dying honorably to save others and themselves, I ask you this, how long would it take you to just figure out what exactly is going on??
Have you ever been caught off guard?
gunshots in a club or action movie are first thought to be part of the sound effects....or, so as been reported.
as for the theoretical "good guy with a gun"....if I am standing in the club, and I hear gunshots, and you pull your piece in the name of freedom....you are probably getting tackled/pummeled by a veteran, who might not have totally assessed the situation...
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I assume the density of those killed and wounded was pretty high, but they tried to run. Who knows there might have been one or two who tried to stop him.
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Capt Walter Miller
If any of you have run towards a wannbee mass murderer who had an AR-15, let me know.
I am pointing out a phenomenon that I think is quite valid. If 20 people rushed a perp with an AR-15, the group might have a good outcome. Some individuals in the group might not. But you can't say that -anyone- would go first in that situation. Because you don't know if anyone will follow you. If you had a chance to talk it out, as the people did on Flight 93, yes, then maybe.
But in the moment, you can't count on a mass of people all deciding to rush the shooter at once.
If you don't buy that interpretation I am okay with it.
Walt
I am pointing out a phenomenon that I think is quite valid. If 20 people rushed a perp with an AR-15, the group might have a good outcome. Some individuals in the group might not. But you can't say that -anyone- would go first in that situation. Because you don't know if anyone will follow you. If you had a chance to talk it out, as the people did on Flight 93, yes, then maybe.
But in the moment, you can't count on a mass of people all deciding to rush the shooter at once.
If you don't buy that interpretation I am okay with it.
Walt
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1SG (Join to see)
Capt Walter Miller - I don't want to make this about me, but my weapon was not in reach, and the guy had an AK-47. He was as surprised as I was. I was just faster.
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Capt Walter Miller
1SG (Join to see) - Well, that is certainly interesting.
Your experience wouldn't seem to fit the paradigm because it wasn't a matter of a bunch of people rushing together to overwhelm a shooter who was clearly able to dispatch some or all of them unless they acted together.
Walt
Your experience wouldn't seem to fit the paradigm because it wasn't a matter of a bunch of people rushing together to overwhelm a shooter who was clearly able to dispatch some or all of them unless they acted together.
Walt
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1SG (Join to see)
Capt Walter Miller - If it's him or me, it is gonna be him. Not much to think about really. You don't think about it until afterwards... then it won't go away.
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