Posted on Feb 18, 2015
CPT Company Commander
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As we move forward with the trials of integrating women in combat arms Ranger has became a focal point of this. We all have opinions. How do you feel about this and what do you think the impact of such an integration will have on the military overall?

*This is an attempt to consolidate all the women in Ranger School discussion under one thread.
Posted in these groups: P240 RangerChecklist icon 2 Standards
This is a duplicate discussion. Click below to see more on this topic.
1SG David Lopez
Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.

 

 

Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez

Paso Robles, CA
Responses: 99
SFC Vernon McNabb
I think we're ready for females to do whatever they put their minds to. What I don't think we're ready for is the sexists jokes about the ever elusive "Ranger Panties". If a female can do it, she should not only get the tab to go with it, but more importantly, she deserves the respect. I am curious to see how this turns out. You can bet, I will be the first to say, "Great job!" and a pat on the back.
CPT Company Commander
CPT (Join to see)
10 y
What is sexiest about Ranger Panties. I was just wearing mine this morning.
SFC Vernon McNabb
SFC Vernon McNabb
10 y
CPT (Join to see) Nothing. I got nothing.
SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
It begins....is the Army ready for it. Are you ready for it SSG William Squires?
CPT Company Commander
CPT (Join to see)
10 y
That is the question I have. Who is willing to attempt the severest of all schools in Army.
1SG Vet Technician
1SG (Join to see)
10 y
SFC Shannon Warden,

I have trained with female soldiers who are way more capable then I am in infantry-like operations. I have no doubt that there are some that could make the cut. I just hope that the schools (or more appropriately cadre) don't act like they are fair on the outside, but internally try to subtly undermine the efforts either deliberately or by allowing a long culture to influence them subconsciously.
SFC Explosive Ordnance Disposal Specialist
SFC (Join to see)
10 y
SSG William Squires, I hope the cadre keep it fair too. I sincerely would be saddened to see standards dropped in the name of a skewed view of "fair". The Ranger School is supposed to be challenging. It is supposed to be earned by hard work and effort. I know I am not cut to try out for it; but any female who tries should try knowing she is attempting the same trials as those who came before her. If I believed I was cut for it, I would feel cheated if the standards were lowered for gender bias reasons. Those who wear the Ranger Tab are expected to carry out tough missions in their carreer. So, an easy pass would just lower the capabilities and expectations of the fraction of the force who earn and wear the tab.
SSG John Erny
As long are the standards are met go for it. Women can get away with things men can't in a special warfare situation. Blend in, appear not to be a threat.
Cpl Glynis Sakowicz
What it all comes down to, is that all we want is the CHANCE to try! I doubt that many women will want a career path in this area, but we just want the chance to attempt it. When I first went into the Corps, we only familarized with M16's, when my mother was in, she was given the choice of cook or secretary... nothing else was open... Seventy years of nudging, pushing and just outright begging to let us try, and it looks like we might have pushed that heavy glass ceiling to the side a bit more...

90 researchers & 650 #Marine volunteers and staffers are involved in a 9 month experiment at MCB Camp Lejeune, NC to test the dynamics of co-ed units in combat. “This is an opportunity to do [the integration] right,” Weinberg said. “We should have done this a long time ago, and we didn’t.” Col. Anne Weinberg (Marine Corps Force Innovation Office Deputy Director) #USMC #Trailblazers

Marine Corps prepares for historic gender test
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com
In the coming month or so, Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, will be transformed into a laboratory as some 90 researchers and 650 Marine volunteers and staffers embark on a first-of-its kind experiment to test the dynamics of co-ed units in
COL Jean (John) F. B.
Looks like the movie must portray her as being court-martialed as it appears that she is stepping out of the courtroom under guard. Have seen many such pictures of real-life situations.

Will probably be an "entertaining" movie.

As I have stated before, I have no issue with females in Ranger training, as long as the standards are not lowered for them or anyone.

Having women assigned to Ranger units or the Infantry, for that matter, is another story. I don't believe it would be good for the unit or the Army, in general. More bad than good would come of that. Not meant to be a sexist comment; just my opinion of the issues it would cause the unit for no good purpose except to meet some social engineering agenda.
SPC David S.
SPC David S.
10 y
My thoughts exactly sir. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. However I feel if a female completes the course I think she has earned the tab. But what is a tab if your not using it? Yes it looks like she's headed to Long Bar Hilton in Leavenworth. I couldn't get anymore info from the actress. I commend her OPSEC.
COL Jean (John) F. B.
COL Jean (John) F. B.
10 y
The training and experience you gain in Ranger School is valuable in whatever you do in the military. You don't have to be assigned to a Ranger unit. The vast majority of "tabbed" individuals are not assigned to Ranger units.
PO3 Shaun Taylor
I have no problem with a female being side by side with me in combat.
Lt Col Aerospace Planner
Alot of awards for a 2dLt. I guess the character is Prior service. Not sure where she would have got the MSM unless she was SNCO, too young for that. I know the director probably wanted to make the hero look. The ribbons look to be in the correct so there must have been some tech advising going on.
PO3 Shaun Taylor
PO3 Shaun Taylor
10 y
Lt Col (Join to see) Leilani is older than you think.
SFC(P) Special Pay Actions Nco
Too many times in society women have have been deemed inferior to men, and the US military is no exception to policy. However, I know first hand the extraordinary things my sisters are capable of achieving. I've seen some shoot Hawkeye at range qual, purposely performing to the all "male" standards during an APFT, and saving our entire unit during a premob training exercise. When I was down range in Iraq, I knew a few of these women. It's as if a mother's instinct kicks in and the sense of fear becomes a motivator to push through anything. I'm sure we've all read where woman have done such things in The Army Times and so on. The only issues I would have is the monthly cycle and standards. Some woman take certain birth control or medications not to have one, but even that isn't always 100% effective. If the standards were set before allowing women to attend, the same standards should remain effective. I still say give women the chance to continue to show that they can equally do the same thing men can do and not the chance to prove themselves as equal to what men can do. I'm sure within 3 years or less of women actually attending the school consistently, we will see the first woman to complete and graduate ranger school.
1px xxx
Suspended Profile
10 y
Nice comment. only one point I found a bit disconcerting - I'm not sure why a woman's period is an issue. Female soldiers are used to having to push through our duties while on our cycle :)
SGT William Howell
Hey they let Marines in...that is practically like letting anybody in.

Just kidding Devil Dogs! :)
MAJ Bill Darling
Not many will, as with previous openings women to heretofore all-male jobs. But then the standards will slide which will probably make it attractive to more women the and percentage will probably reach the vaunted "critical mass" being sought.

In one way, it's quite odd, akin to allowing 10th grade football players to play in the college level and, oh while we're at it, invite them to try out for the NFL too. I would have thought that IN, AR, and cannon FA would have been the proving grounds for SOF and they wouldn't try it concurrently.

On the other hand, elements in the Army have been pushing this for decades, with little known and unsuccessful attempts. But kind of like national healthcare, if you keep pushing and pushing, you might find that moment when everyone buys into it and then it's hard to close Pandora's box after that.

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