As we move forward with the trials of integrating women in combat arms Ranger has became a focal point of this. We all have opinions. How do you feel about this and what do you think the impact of such an integration will have on the military overall?
*This is an attempt to consolidate all the women in Ranger School discussion under one thread.
*This is an attempt to consolidate all the women in Ranger School discussion under one thread.
Ranger
Standards
Posted 10 y ago
This is a duplicate discussion. Click below to see more on this topic.
Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Responses: 99
In combat, bullets and bombs do not discriminate between male and female. They do, however, discriminate between the strong and the weak. As a Ranger and an Infantryman, I can tell you all I really cared about the Soldier next to me is that he/she was the best that could be there. Sorry to disappoint he feminists but there is a physiological difference between men and women. It is an undeniable fact. that said, I am not sure I want to spend much time in the ring with Rhonda Rousey. I am sure it would be a short date. Ground combat (I am not talking about rolling up in a HMMWV and firing a CSW into a building) a la Afghanistan, humping rucks at high altitude and low air density is excruciatingly demanding. Even male in top shape struggle. So, is the risk of comprising the high standards of one of the world's premier leadership schools worth the sprinkle of female Soldiers who both want to attend and can complete the course? (Assuming the standards are not lowered.) What is the benefit to the force? We get to proclaim that we are gender fair. Well, if no one has noticed, let me pop your balloon. There is nothing fair about combat. Sorry, I don't see that benefit.
CPT (Join to see)
I question what is the reason here and why start at Ranger. I just don't foresee one passing with the current standards. I went in winter and don't see how one could survive that. We lost most of the class in benning.
My apologies ahead of time but I think this is stupid. In my 5 years and countless unit/squadron/group runs I have yet to see a woman finish the run let alone stay up with the pack. Yes, I'm saying every one. Maybe weve just had alot of out of shape women in the pt sessions, but it certainly says something with a 100% drop rate.
Women Marines say their boot camp is a hard as men yet their packs are lighter and the speed is slower.
Here in Phoenix many years back there was an all woman fire fighter trainee class. The initial test was pretty rigorous but designed to weed out the weak. Again, 100% failure rate on the test. But because of a court order to fill quota, they all went through.
The enemy isn't going to lower its standards or fight easier for women and the average woman is no where near as strong as the average man.
For those who can pass the SAME tests as a man, thats great. Otherwise, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and cares not about being politically correct.
Women Marines say their boot camp is a hard as men yet their packs are lighter and the speed is slower.
Here in Phoenix many years back there was an all woman fire fighter trainee class. The initial test was pretty rigorous but designed to weed out the weak. Again, 100% failure rate on the test. But because of a court order to fill quota, they all went through.
The enemy isn't going to lower its standards or fight easier for women and the average woman is no where near as strong as the average man.
For those who can pass the SAME tests as a man, thats great. Otherwise, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and cares not about being politically correct.
CPT (Join to see)
This is one of the issues that many are concerned about. All Ranger students have to test at the 18-21 yr group in the PFT. That 49 push ups, 59 Sit ups, 6 dead hang pull ups, and a 5 mile run in 40 mins. That is just the RPFT and on top of that you have the ruck and the buddy run. This is a 70% standard and they grade extremely harsh.
A female on their scale at 70% would be 25 PU, SU is the same but the run is different. For a two mile You have to maintain a sub 8min mile for 5 miles. An sub 8 min mile for a female would be maxing out their scale.
The other issue here is if a female can pass the male standard and ruck 70+ pds also.
A female on their scale at 70% would be 25 PU, SU is the same but the run is different. For a two mile You have to maintain a sub 8min mile for 5 miles. An sub 8 min mile for a female would be maxing out their scale.
The other issue here is if a female can pass the male standard and ruck 70+ pds also.
Sgt Packy Flickinger
When I was in it looks like the test would have cake for me. I wouldn't have a chance now. 2 major surgeries have wiped me out. Since it's all a team thing, having lower standards for women in training would slow everybody in combat. Then Ofcourse there is the white elephant issue, the monthly issue. I work in a hospital, I see many in there every day where perfect hygiene isn't maintained. Combat isn't politically correct.
1LT (Join to see)
Sgt Packy Flickinger you make a very valid point and its something that I thought about that isn't brought up alot. Whether it's akward for people to talk about or what I couldn't tell you. But either way it is a big reason that I don't have the desire to try out myself. But at the same time I will tell you that there are some women that I've talked to that don't care. I have a feeling that this whole thing is going to be a big we'll have to see what happens. But you are absolutely correct, combat environment suck and combat sucks even more so those that choose this path have a lot to endure. We can only hope that they've given this thought and wish them the best.
Sgt Packy Flickinger
Problem is, those who go into combat who aren't ready for it arnt the only ones who pay for it. That includes anybody for any reason. We've had jets crash because the pilot had a cold. It doesn't take much to sideline the combat ability of a unit. The enemy is getting better.
1LT (Join to see) : If you plan to go to Ranger School, let me know as well I will be rooting up for you,
In the words of one of our NY Senators :
"I have no doubt there are qualified women who can serve in any role in our military," Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) told The Huffington Post, "and when all of our best and brightest serve in combat our country is stronger for it.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/women-in-combat-special-ops_n_3461065.html
In the words of one of our NY Senators :
"I have no doubt there are qualified women who can serve in any role in our military," Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) told The Huffington Post, "and when all of our best and brightest serve in combat our country is stronger for it.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/18/women-in-combat-special-ops_n_3461065.html
The Next Barrier To Fall For Women In Combat
Women may begin to train in some of the most elite units of the U.S. military under plans announced Tuesday, in another step forward following the Pentagon's lift of the longstanding ban on women in c
1LT (Join to see)
SSG Laureano Pabon I don't know if I'll be one of the girls to go for it but those who do have my full support. I'm not going to be shocked when someone does it eventually because I do believe that it can be done. Even under the current standards I do believe that there will be a woman to make it through. And where there's one that makes it there will be two, and so on.
Sgt Packy Flickinger
Has Kirsten ever been in the military let alone seen combat?! To many of our leader are "sure of" a lot of things with out having a clue on which they speak. I'm sure there are some women who could make it through Ranger school. But in my 5 years in the Marines I have yet to meet one that could make it through basic PT.
SSG Laureano Pabon
Sgt Packy Flickinger , sorry for the delay, I posted a link of Sen Kristen so you can see. I don't how you feel about this, but its looking more like GI JANE to me. Even though it was just a movie, I can see some similarities you think?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsten_Gillibrand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirsten_Gillibrand
LTC Barry Hull
SSG Laureano Pabon that's the problem. I hear pontificating politicians pushing this under the banner of equality and the public getting excited about it.
Lets see this for what it is. An issue that politicians can use to justify a vote. Maybe I missed it but I have not seen one female on this post that has stated "I will go". This is just another political stunt for which the military will pay the price if it gets screwed up.
Lets see this for what it is. An issue that politicians can use to justify a vote. Maybe I missed it but I have not seen one female on this post that has stated "I will go". This is just another political stunt for which the military will pay the price if it gets screwed up.
In 1976, front and center, women were invited to attend the military academies, West Point in New York and Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland. 38 years later women have been invited to the US Army Ranger school. New things and new challenges await, as it was in the late 70s. I believe that this era is a test of 21st Century leadership conditioning for our military's future.
Change is coming and our military is just as diverse as it is with operational and organizational dynamics. It is no use in hiding behind a salty military uniform or old worn out standards. I believe new uniforms will be designed and new leadership skills will be developed like in the academies. New standards will be set and the military will move forward in a post modern era.
Change is coming and our military is just as diverse as it is with operational and organizational dynamics. It is no use in hiding behind a salty military uniform or old worn out standards. I believe new uniforms will be designed and new leadership skills will be developed like in the academies. New standards will be set and the military will move forward in a post modern era.
Good for them, and us!
Sooner or later, a woman will meet the challenge and successfully complete the course.
Sooner or later, a woman will meet the challenge and successfully complete the course.
As a former member of the Ranger Cadre at Ft Benning, I have no problems with this, if the standards are maintained. There should be no "male/female" standards, nor any loosening of the standards to ensure females can be successful to prove some social engineering/political point.
I fully support females in the military and have worked with them in my units and staff sections foe many years. I just do not agree with different standards for anyone. Set the standard for the mission at hand and require everyone to meet them or leave/fail, regardless of what it is. Make the standards fit the job/mission requirement and allow anybody who can meet them participate.
I fully support females in the military and have worked with them in my units and staff sections foe many years. I just do not agree with different standards for anyone. Set the standard for the mission at hand and require everyone to meet them or leave/fail, regardless of what it is. Make the standards fit the job/mission requirement and allow anybody who can meet them participate.
1LT (Join to see)
Couldn't agree more Sir. The way I always saw it was that this isn't a "civil rights" course so to speak. Meaning that if someone wants to earn that tab then they should earn it the way things are right now. Ranger School is hard for a reason.
CPT (Join to see)
I believe it was a year or two ago the marines tested out women attending the marines version of infantry OBC. Out of the 20 that volunteered only 2 made it. Like the marines, as long as the standards dont change and the Female Soldiers are not shown favoritism. I think females should be able to compete in every branch and school.
That is fine. This will go the way of the Marines Infantry Officer School. Everyone they sent failed by the second week. It was just not something a person just go to. It is a struggle for men. Women would have to have similar muscle mass to a man to be competitive there. RAP week kicks the poop out of you but the mountains reconsider your decisions in life. I just don't see it being something that is possible while making without being peered. I have seen strong guys go there and break in days.
I would like to see if they can pass a Pre-Ranger first.
I would like to see if they can pass a Pre-Ranger first.
If they are able to go through and maintain the standards and endure the same hardships the school provides you and the torment that the RI's dish out, without complaint, then they should be allowed.
The Army has a standard and Rangers have a standard which is above and beyond that. The Ranger standard does not discriminate between age(18-60yr is the same, but 49yo is the oldest grad; Class 10-13) so keep it that way for gender.
How your peers look on you, if you cant pull your weight or contribute in some way you will be booted. Now you may comment that males will automatically look down on females and give them negative peers, I have to disagree. I have seen a few females hump a load and firemans carry with less complaint and more aggression than some males I have served with.
Finally Ranger school is the premier leadership school in the world. The way in which they teach you, and you must demonstrate your leadership ability, is through OPORDERs, FRAGOs, patrols, battle drills, ambushes, and raids. If you cant conduct basic task organization and dissemination of information you have no chance. Oh and let's not forget the lack of sleep and food throughout.
Now having them actually serve in The 75th is another issue altogether.
The Army has a standard and Rangers have a standard which is above and beyond that. The Ranger standard does not discriminate between age(18-60yr is the same, but 49yo is the oldest grad; Class 10-13) so keep it that way for gender.
How your peers look on you, if you cant pull your weight or contribute in some way you will be booted. Now you may comment that males will automatically look down on females and give them negative peers, I have to disagree. I have seen a few females hump a load and firemans carry with less complaint and more aggression than some males I have served with.
Finally Ranger school is the premier leadership school in the world. The way in which they teach you, and you must demonstrate your leadership ability, is through OPORDERs, FRAGOs, patrols, battle drills, ambushes, and raids. If you cant conduct basic task organization and dissemination of information you have no chance. Oh and let's not forget the lack of sleep and food throughout.
Now having them actually serve in The 75th is another issue altogether.
CPT (Join to see)
I do think the Peers will be an issue for them. Carrying a load one time for an event is one thing. But carrying a load of 70-80 pds everyday in the mountains is going to break you. We had three guys get peered in Benning Phase just from my squad. That left a pretty strong squad. That is what they would going up against.
Also, at a unit you will see typical soldiers there. In Ranger you will see a stronger soldier there than your typical soldier in your unit.
Also, at a unit you will see typical soldiers there. In Ranger you will see a stronger soldier there than your typical soldier in your unit.
SFC (Join to see)
I think your sleep and food deprivation betrays your sir. Winter packing list for mountains is more weight than that, and god forbid the 240 goes ca-chunck and you have to lug around that extra ammo.
I also agree that even in the basic Ranger statistics it shows that the top soldier in the unit goes to PRC and gets weeded out even before the school itself, as my old 1SG said "Men lie, women lie, number and percentages dont". (e.g.) My PRC Class started with ~400 @ the RPFT and ended up with 43 grads, 39 of which actually cycled to Ranger School due to medical reasons. Of them I only know of about 13 that made it through the school.
I also agree that even in the basic Ranger statistics it shows that the top soldier in the unit goes to PRC and gets weeded out even before the school itself, as my old 1SG said "Men lie, women lie, number and percentages dont". (e.g.) My PRC Class started with ~400 @ the RPFT and ended up with 43 grads, 39 of which actually cycled to Ranger School due to medical reasons. Of them I only know of about 13 that made it through the school.
CPT (Join to see)
I am a winter ranger. I just recall sucking more than one ever should in a lifetime. I have deployed twice and still think Ranger was harder.
Through the hard work and vision of vanguards they drag the rest of us into progress.
This reminds me of a parable of sorts. A man goes into a bar a sits down. He notices the guy sitting next to him has a dog. He asks if the dog bites. The dog owner says no. As the patron goes to pet the dog he's badly bitten. He scolds the owner,"Hey i thought you said your dog doesn't bite.". The owner smugly replies,"Well there's a first time for everything". 2LT Carlino, I say bite away!
This reminds me of a parable of sorts. A man goes into a bar a sits down. He notices the guy sitting next to him has a dog. He asks if the dog bites. The dog owner says no. As the patron goes to pet the dog he's badly bitten. He scolds the owner,"Hey i thought you said your dog doesn't bite.". The owner smugly replies,"Well there's a first time for everything". 2LT Carlino, I say bite away!
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