Posted on Mar 8, 2015
What should I put on my event-oriented counseling for this NCO?
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Thank you for your time, comments, and suggestions everyone.
Army
Training
Counseling
Leadership
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 16
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8
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Depriving a Soldier of training by not taking the time to coach and mentor firers.
Leading by bad example, that teaches others that this is a method
Lied to me about firing into Soldier's lane, what else and when will he compromise? Compromising integrity in training opens the door to accidents, inconsistent standards, favoritism. This NCO bares watching
Nothing good out of what happened on the range. What is the corrective action associated with the counseling? He coaches firers at the range that are struggling? Counseling him on shortcomings is only part of the counseling process, what is the outcome you want and when do you want to reach a measurable conclusion to the concerns you identified?
Leading by bad example, that teaches others that this is a method
Lied to me about firing into Soldier's lane, what else and when will he compromise? Compromising integrity in training opens the door to accidents, inconsistent standards, favoritism. This NCO bares watching
Nothing good out of what happened on the range. What is the corrective action associated with the counseling? He coaches firers at the range that are struggling? Counseling him on shortcomings is only part of the counseling process, what is the outcome you want and when do you want to reach a measurable conclusion to the concerns you identified?
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CPT Benjamin Wenner
Sir, thank you for your response.
My plan of action is imperative...for him and for our unit. I will ensure that all violations that were mentioned have a specific solution with a timeline/suspense.
My plan of action is imperative...for him and for our unit. I will ensure that all violations that were mentioned have a specific solution with a timeline/suspense.
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Sir:
While we all know the feeling of wanting to wrap up a range and go home, professionalism MUST be the deciding factor. These are my concerns:
1.) What happens when this Soldier (who was being assisted) has to deploy and can't shoot accurately?
2.) By assisting the Soldier to qualify, the NCO in question has shown favoritism, unless every Soldier had access to a buddy who would intentionally shoot at their targets.
3.) By lying to a Commissioned Officer, the NCO in question has shown a disregard for his own honor, your rank/dignity, and the UCMJ
Should this ruin his career? I'm not sure; that's a judgment call for you to make, sir. You should look at his overall performance as a NCO within the unit. If this is a one-off, then a good ass-chewing and the written counseling may fit the bill. If this is one more in a series of poor judgment decisions, then it may be time for him to go to the house.
I am curious-- I have functioned as a Range Safety at several ranges, and I have always been able to coach Soldiers to successfully qualify when they started out the day not even hitting the paper. But even those who could not qualify after two tries went home unqualified. Was there some urgency that demanded 100% qualification? Sometimes you have to allow some people to fail in order for them to find the proper motivation to achieve the standard later on.
While we all know the feeling of wanting to wrap up a range and go home, professionalism MUST be the deciding factor. These are my concerns:
1.) What happens when this Soldier (who was being assisted) has to deploy and can't shoot accurately?
2.) By assisting the Soldier to qualify, the NCO in question has shown favoritism, unless every Soldier had access to a buddy who would intentionally shoot at their targets.
3.) By lying to a Commissioned Officer, the NCO in question has shown a disregard for his own honor, your rank/dignity, and the UCMJ
Should this ruin his career? I'm not sure; that's a judgment call for you to make, sir. You should look at his overall performance as a NCO within the unit. If this is a one-off, then a good ass-chewing and the written counseling may fit the bill. If this is one more in a series of poor judgment decisions, then it may be time for him to go to the house.
I am curious-- I have functioned as a Range Safety at several ranges, and I have always been able to coach Soldiers to successfully qualify when they started out the day not even hitting the paper. But even those who could not qualify after two tries went home unqualified. Was there some urgency that demanded 100% qualification? Sometimes you have to allow some people to fail in order for them to find the proper motivation to achieve the standard later on.
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CPT Benjamin Wenner
We, as an FSC, only had about 2,200 rounds to begin with (left over from my M4 range last month) for Soldiers needing to zero and qualify or re-qualify (yes, both ranges were conducted in one day…we lost Friday due to a III Corps training holiday). We wanted to expend all rounds while aiming for as many qualifications as possible. Soldiers who did qualify were instructed to give the Soldiers who didn’t an additional opportunity (or two…or three). So it would not have been an issue for me to resend a Soldier through retrain, but with the additional goal to expend all 5.56mm rounds, he may have attempted to hit two birds with one stone, the wrong way.
All are good points to consider - but unfortunately, he already has an inadequate track record with an Article 15 while on deployment last year. Even my/our BN CSM, whom I paid a visit in confidence for additional guidance, is tracking that he isn't worth trading around units for others to embrace. As I currently don't have a backup plan for a replacement PSG, in which case we are limited in NCOs (and Soldiers in general - as per MTOE), I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. Additionally, my 1SG is on leave until Wednesday, and tomorrow I am aiming to counsel him with all my ducks in a row. It seems that everyone above me has appointed me as the executioner, and it's something I'm hesitant to do immediately since I don't have a replacement PSG to lead the PLT in his place. In all reality, this April marks his 16th year and, in June, the board will convene to determine if he will make E7 (which is doubtful – even in his opinion). So he’s looking at separation with about 40% pay – which he seems to be quite content with. I think he knew the fate of his career was in turmoil when he started this rowdy behavior, well before my time.
All are good points to consider - but unfortunately, he already has an inadequate track record with an Article 15 while on deployment last year. Even my/our BN CSM, whom I paid a visit in confidence for additional guidance, is tracking that he isn't worth trading around units for others to embrace. As I currently don't have a backup plan for a replacement PSG, in which case we are limited in NCOs (and Soldiers in general - as per MTOE), I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. Additionally, my 1SG is on leave until Wednesday, and tomorrow I am aiming to counsel him with all my ducks in a row. It seems that everyone above me has appointed me as the executioner, and it's something I'm hesitant to do immediately since I don't have a replacement PSG to lead the PLT in his place. In all reality, this April marks his 16th year and, in June, the board will convene to determine if he will make E7 (which is doubtful – even in his opinion). So he’s looking at separation with about 40% pay – which he seems to be quite content with. I think he knew the fate of his career was in turmoil when he started this rowdy behavior, well before my time.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Sir,
Any chance of appointing a high-speed SSG to fill in as PSG? There are usually a few who are up to the challenge, and would likely benefit from a nice bullet or two on their NCOER...
Any chance of appointing a high-speed SSG to fill in as PSG? There are usually a few who are up to the challenge, and would likely benefit from a nice bullet or two on their NCOER...
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SGT Richard H.
CPT Benjamin Wenner One point in your answer here that I'd like to key in on. Where you mention not having a backup plan for a PSG and a shortage of soldiers, if at all possible (and I do mean possible, not convenient) This should be removed as an element of consideration here. All things should be weighed with regard to the individual's fitness. If he's filling a perceived need and doing it badly, his continued presence may actually be setting you back more than filling a need of the organization.
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CPT Benjamin Wenner
Sir - There is a difference between making an honest mistake and blatantly lying/doing the wrong thing. This NCO is a staff sergeant he knows the difference between right and wrong.
I will tell you what I would of done if I was your platoon sergeant. I would of suspended him pending relief right on the spot, in front of everyone. I would of talked with the 1SG and CSM about the issue and asked for that NCO to be moved to a different platoon/company, the NCO would arrive with a not so good change of rater NCOER. Depending on the NCO's previous duty performance would determine whether I recommended non-judicial punishment. Written counseling would be complete with all the magic bullets.
All of the above would make my expectations crystal clear to the rest of the NCOs in the platoon.
This is a big problem with a lot of mid level NCOs. Taking short cuts, lying, and not living by the Army Values is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. Sir, just a bit of advice from a crusty old NCO, if a NCO lies right to your face you can bet your ass you can't trust them to be there when the shit hits the fan.
Sir - There is a difference between making an honest mistake and blatantly lying/doing the wrong thing. This NCO is a staff sergeant he knows the difference between right and wrong.
I will tell you what I would of done if I was your platoon sergeant. I would of suspended him pending relief right on the spot, in front of everyone. I would of talked with the 1SG and CSM about the issue and asked for that NCO to be moved to a different platoon/company, the NCO would arrive with a not so good change of rater NCOER. Depending on the NCO's previous duty performance would determine whether I recommended non-judicial punishment. Written counseling would be complete with all the magic bullets.
All of the above would make my expectations crystal clear to the rest of the NCOs in the platoon.
This is a big problem with a lot of mid level NCOs. Taking short cuts, lying, and not living by the Army Values is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. Sir, just a bit of advice from a crusty old NCO, if a NCO lies right to your face you can bet your ass you can't trust them to be there when the shit hits the fan.
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