Posted on Sep 27, 2013
CPT Aaron Kletzing
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As the military enters a significant downsizing period, it's important to talk through relevant issues and solutions. &nbsp;Enter your response below, and if it gets the most Up votes, you win a free iPad Mini and we will personally deliver your thoughts to our Advisory Board, which includes retired Generals George Casey and Norton Schwartz, the recent Chiefs of Staff of the Army and Air Force, respectively.<div><br></div><div>Tip: Get all your friends to vote Up your response by the end of the contest on Oct 7, 2013.</div>
Posted in these groups: 702767d5 Downsizing
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CPT Bde Cbrn Oic
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<div>&gt; Retain the top personnel. Spend effort (a team of smart unpaid outsiders, like interns from good schools, who know data analysis, anthropology, industrial engineering) into getting some good data analytics on NCOERs/OERs/deployment experience in order to make a decision on who the low performers will be and who the high performers will be. Pay the high performers to stay and deal with the pains associated with downsizing, and pay the low performers to depart.</div><div><br></div><div>&gt; Get the contractors out of IT/C2 and forget the sunk costs and sunk legacies. CPOF, DTMS, etc. are great ideas troubled with poor understanding and horrible implementation because the input/interface is non-obvious by design. You don't need training to use your iPhone, but even with training it can take a team to figure a CPOF report feature out (this isn't true everywhere obviously)... Our network-centric infrastructure's robustness is dependent upon civilians who work set hours, set days, can be furloughed, and who are invested in bureaucracy; our signal Soldiers down at the battalions lose their rights to fix problems over to higher civilian oversight as a form of reactionary stop-gaps and fears of what those Soldiers could do, because the Army can't afford to pay the contracts necessary to fix the software such that it conforms to the user. Instead, the Soldier must conform to the software's oversight or issue, and we get more new policies and new training. "FRAGO to the FRAGO" and so on in regards to a policy that our E-1s have to be trusted to implement for our own OPSEC... which has a direct impact on our agility. Let units program their own ground-up, low-level databases and queries in a contained cloud to automate and synchronize the administrative stuff and then customize how that query presents to the Soldier! Let units share those products with other units. Open this market to smart Soldiers we have all over the place, not companies that must design the IT/C2 products such that they need eternal maintenance, updates, and field service reps to coax paychecks. 3 Soldiers could make a better, usable DTMS in a year if only they had the space, rights, and we weren't afraid to replace the fragmented network of separated databases that don't communicate. How many databases must my SSN be in...? When Soldiers have IA violations they need to get their certificates again, but the IA training videos are contracted (cost money, cumbersome to change) and not updated to reflect these policy changes upon policy changes - so nothing is learned and time is wasted; it's a punitive solution to a problem that shouldn't exist in any organization that values robustness and agility. Our IT/mission command problems at battalions are pervasive, crippling, and getting sillier every day.</div><div><br></div>
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SA Harold Hansmann
SA Harold Hansmann
>1 y
Quit paying $10,000 for toilet seats, $3000 for a hammer.
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MSG Timothy Smith
MSG Timothy Smith
>1 y
I agree with you, Mike, but I think that expansion should also extend to the retiree, the one that is trying to relate his/her military training to the civilian sector. Are all retiree's going to want to use it? Probably not,but the option should be open to them.
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PO1 Jack Howell
PO1 Jack Howell
8 y
SA Harold Hansmann - What are you basing this statement on? If you don't have any evidence to support your claim, then you shouldn't be posting a statement like this.
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Lt Col Sexual Assault Prevention & Response Program Manager
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Inspire innovation. &nbsp;We need to find better/different ways of doing things and not accepting a process/program is good enough as is. &nbsp;From big things to little things, we need to all stop and think if what we are doing every moment is really being done the &nbsp;best way. &nbsp;
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SGT Tim S.
SGT Tim S.
11 y
I humbly agree with LTC C. & SFC Christopher.

Upon my review of everyone's composition to this discussion, essentially draws conclusion to innovation (which is a constant), core standards implementation; maintain qualifications, fitness, and readiness. Chapter those perfunctory personnel, and promote, educate, train intellectual human capital.

Furthermore, leadership elites need disengage bureaucracies & special interests, and concentrate on the source of the matter; not political correction. Combine & consolidate elements that can be, and minimize expenditures/overhead by referring and conferring with Unit senior military leadership with OPEN communication. Senior leadership must refer and confer with their mid-level management, address mission essential information and address quality improvements & risk management.

Likewise, establish record documentation to illustrate/prove goal success or troubleshoot with open communication. Re-evaluate until proven favorable results, or re-evaluate plan of action with current knowledge to reflect and avoid repeated mistakes.
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SGT Operations
SGT (Join to see)
11 y
Wow! Well said Ma'am. I know there has to be atleast 60-70% that think at least once a day "why are we doing this nonsense?" Maybe it sounded good at the top but is totally impracticl at the lower levels, or vice versa.
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COL Vincent Stoneking
COL Vincent Stoneking
>1 y
LTC Cashin, 
I think you hit it on the head.  One of the biggest issues I have encountered as a Reservist is the continual shifts as I go from my civilian job to my military one.

The (peacetime) military really lags the civilian environment when it comes to innovation and technology. This is also especially true when it comes to administrative policy. In fact, there seems to be quite a bit of "I had to suffer through it, so now it's your turn" in our DNA. I cannot imagine my civilian job requiring me to turn in my personnel evaluations in advance & having 3+ levels of review before it would be "accepted into the system" for instance.

On the other hand, every time I return to my civilian job, I pine for the can-do attitude, flexibility, and sheer competence I get from most my Soldiers and JR officers. (For the AC folks reading who are thinking "what? there are so many cluster $#$%!!" I can only say that what you see depends on where you stand. The civilian world has its own suck too.)

So- Great leader development, horrible admin/support systems. Well, to be fair, not "horrible" just "built for another time." We still have the industrial-age personnel and administrative systems that were appropriate for large enterprises with little/no computer support but tons of money & people. Now we have tons of automation available but less money & people. 

Sadly, I fear that the drawdown will lead to a lot of the most talented, most motivated Soldiers leaving the service. And, as you say, we won't be competitive for the time & attention of the next crop of the talented and motivated if we cannot break our industrial-age mindset.
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SSgt Carl B.
SSgt Carl B.
>1 y
Tough question – The military needs strong civilian leadership to map out the USA’s goals, something that is severely lacking.

Will the USA continue to be the leader of the world or let China, a reemerging Russia, the Middle East and other remerging countries take our place.

If the military is to remain strong the USA must have a strong economy that is not indebted to China or other countries. A strong middle class with opportunities for all citizens and not just the top 20% and to start manufacturing again.

How can we be military strong if we rely on China, Russia (they build rockets for the USA – who knew!) and other countries to manufacture our weapons stamens and computers.

A more direct answer:

Prepare for the next 30 years – they will be different than the last 30 years. What are the alternatives to spending huge $$$ on military systems like the F – 25 $200 mil per aircraft or Joint Strike Fighter. The USA needs to also take care of the men and women servicing the military.

Carl B .
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SGT Electronics Technician (Et)
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I agree with SSG Shaw- let folks who *want* to get out, do just that. But I would also take it one step further and say the promotion system needs an overhaul as well. <br><br>To be promoted in the Army you need simply to be a PT stud who takes the easiest college route available and get the tower NCO to "hook you up" at the range. It's going to be controversial to say this, but promotion should be based on two basic criteria- MOS knowledge/proficiency, and overall leadership ability. Of course those could be further broken up, and you could still factor things like combat experience in. <br><br>But honestly, whether someone gets a 250 or a 300 on their APFT really has no bearing on their ability to do their job or to lead troops. Same with a college degree- it should *certainly* put you ahead of your peers, but not be an end-all requirement. Take the Air Force's model of MOS proficiency tests for each skill level and test the individual at the next skill level. Be brutal. Then the Soldiers Chain of Command and NCO Support Channel convenes and gives an overall, HONEST assessment of their leadership ability. Not the NCOER rating, but a real one. There could still be a board of sorts, but rattling off memorized answers is pointless too. They could be answering a quiz about Harry Potter books for all it matters. Additional points can be added for college degrees or 290+ APFT or 40/40 range scores. How many awards someone has? Come on. That would mean the E-4 sitting in NATO or at the Pentagon on a desk job with no combat patch would be more qualified than the E-5P on his third deployment who has been hands-on in the MOS for years and years. The awards system is no better a method for promotion criteria than rattling off memorized book answers.<br><br>On the other hand, and once again I know most people will disagree with me here, I say return the RCP to its original state. If a Soldier likes- I mean truly likes their MOS, likes working in that MOS, likes training Soldiers in that MOS, has a great deal of knowledge to bring to the table and is more concerned with job satisfaction, why would you want to put that person out telling them "you should have reclassed into a job you don't know and have no interest in or passion for to get promoted." That Joe shouldn't have to reclass or be that PT stud with sham college under his belt. I've seen great NCOs in my time but I've also seen NCOs who were exactly that- PT studs with excessively generic degrees getting promoted fast but have no MOS knowledge or ability getting shown up by the E-2 out of AIT and have NO leadership ability at all, even after WLC. This method is effectively putting out the people who have the wealth of knowledge and encouraging people to focus on the Army only rather than the MOS that they trained them for. At this rate it's going to be just like the Army after the last drawdown- an Army full of Specialists and Captains.. because there's such a push to put out the top folks and to weed out all the knowledgeable mid-to-upper-level Joes. And when it's all said and done you'll have all these guys looking at the equipment realizing that they can read the TM just fine but no one really knows the realities of it- the real ins and outs of it.<br><br>I've said it more than once and I know it's true- most people here will flat-out disagree with me. That's fine. That's the beauty of opinions. We're all entitled to our own.<br>
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SGT Public Affairs Broadcast Specialist
SGT (Join to see)
11 y
I've been saying this for YEARS (but you said it first, so I won't steal your thunder there).

I'm currently in the position where it is extremely hard to get motivated to get promotion points because 1) our SSG points have been 798 for a year now (with the exception of ONE promotion), 2) the SSG's in my office haven't even been afforded ALC... so THERE's a bunch of points I can't get, and 3) without a deployment, It is IMPOSSIBLE for me to get there!!! 

I could literally do everything in my power to get promoted, but if I don't get ALC, a deployment (and a bunch of awards), it is highly unlikely that I'll get a promotion.


All that to say that I could be the BEST at my job (which I, admittedly, am NOT, yet) but still not be able to be promoted because I cannot check off the blocks for promotion...
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SPC Stephanie Oanes
SPC Stephanie Oanes
11 y
I couldn't have put it better myself, VERY good points. 
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SPC Mechanic
SPC (Join to see)
11 y
SGT Beaulieu, I could not agree more with this. I have had this discussion with NCO's, Officers and Enlisted personnel respectively. A lot of different Soldier's have different opinions of what a leader should be, but one thing the majority of us agreed on is that shooting a 40/40 and scoring a 300 on a PT test does not make you a leader. I believe, too, it should be MOS proficiency and knowledge along with the individuals leadership qualities above average. I have seen too many NCO's get promoted just to make the extra buck and use the power as an entitlement instead of leading and training their subordinants.
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SSG Aircraft Mechanic
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>1 y
I love your answer. I've been preaching this same thing almost verbatim for a few years now.
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What's the most important thing the military should do while going through this downsizing period?
Col Ima To Director
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The military must re-focus on its core mission
sets and eliminate mission creep/non value training…get back to the basics!



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SSgt Forensic Meteorological Consultant
SSgt (Join to see)
11 y
The social agendas are so political that disagreement will bet met with attacks on a person's career and since I am no longer active, I can say that.
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SFC Sqdn Fsnco
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
Believe it not Sir, your PSGs have been trying for years to make this happen. We must fight for every opportunity to train our Soldiers in the Basics. Our Leaders want Huge million dollars training events but fail to allow the Soldiers time for cheap individual and platoon level training. When we do get that time our Soldiers are tasked with Staff duty and clean up details that prevent them from attending.... Last week I had scheduled training for my platoon but do to red cycle tasking's I only had 1 Soldier who was available to train.
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LCDR Academics Officer
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11 y
Sir, Did you listen to the CG???
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LTC Supply And Services Manager
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What is preventing the merging of Service equipment and training? &nbsp;How much money could be saved through a single DoD purchasing program to identify a single 5 ton truck, heavy lift aircraft, attack aviation, and uniform items? &nbsp;Why does each Service need to have their own test and evaluation boards to make these selections? &nbsp;Additionally, the cost savings in Class IX repair parts would be huge. There would be commonality between the Services on the items stocked in our warehouses. Non mission capable equipment would be repaired more quickly. Furthermore, there is a potential for combining basic training across the Services, and even some initial MOS training courses, then breaking these new recruits into their individual required Service training.&nbsp;
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LTC Senior Project Manager
LTC (Join to see)
11 y
SIR: I completely agree with your comment. During my deployment in a theater of operations, a single system of DOD equipment & supplies would create value by saving the taxpayer money and leaving more resources for training a combined armed force.
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LTC Engineer Officer
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11 y
Excellent point. Challenging - as shown by the Joint Strike Fighter venture - because of the nature of our services right now. But it certainly makes sense ... lots of sense.
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SSG Mike Angelo
SSG Mike Angelo
>1 y
LTC said...What is preventing the merging of Service equipment and training? My Answer: A shared vision from the top-down, hence broken vision. 
If it is a $ issue, for example, look toward defense re-utilization scenarios with Homeland Security, and other law enforcement agencies...and foreign military sales options.  
If its a time on table procurement issue, for example 5 year acquisition plan. Collaborate with partners for a lesser time from idea to "in the hands of troops. Ask the troops if current equipment can be modified for their purpose instead of re-inventing the wheel. 

Just saying...
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1SG(P) First Sergeant
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Do a better job of prioritizing our resources.&nbsp; By resources I mean personnel, cash, and time.&nbsp; We need to define our missions well, and then determine whether our beans, bullets, and bodies are actually serving those missions.&nbsp; If you analyze a concept, and at the end can't say, "by doing this we're able to be more effective warriors", then it's probably a waste of what little we may have.&nbsp; For the Army it's sometimes as simple as asking "Is what we're doing improving the ability of an Infantry Private to do his job?"&nbsp; It's not the military's job to make us feel good about ourselves.&nbsp; We should feel good about ourselves when we accomplish our missions.<br>
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LTC Engineer Officer
LTC (Join to see)
11 y
You have very clearly and concisely stated the most important task, SFC Callan: Define our missions and the determine what is needed to achieve them. If it is not mission essential than why are we doing it? I like the questions you propose we ask as we decide what to do and what to no longer do.
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CPT Behavioral Health Officer
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Watch how we downsize. We have seen the problems we created in our leadership the last time we did this. We need to cull not by the PT studs staying in but keep some intelligence and forward thinking soldiers and leaders to pave the way. Also revamp our contract system. The outsourcing to contracts is not cost efficient. And bring our military home or change locations. I have been stationed in Germany and it is very expensive to maintain our bases. If we need to stay in Europe let's start shopping around for countries that need and want us. Our SOFA agreements are outdated and need to be modified.&nbsp;
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SFC Sqdn Fsnco
SFC (Join to see)
11 y
So true! As I mentioned in an earlier post, the Soldiers that are fighting to stay in are not necessarily the best and brightest, even if they can score a 300 on the AFPT. The Army places such a high importance on what it looks likes to the observer, even though what's going on behind closed doors may be a rotting, festering mess of incompetence and stupidity. But hey.... We look good!
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MAJ Combat Engineer
MAJ (Join to see)
11 y
Fair point. USEUCOM did look at moving to eastern Europe to save money, but the cost was actually higher. The base workers would cost less, but the cost to sustain a base, and push logistics sky rocketed. Its better to be in a well developed area like Western Europe because they can better support the military's needs.
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SSG Retired
SSG (Join to see)
11 y
Before we downsize the military we need to do away with the outsorcing of duties that puts our information inn the hands of third parties wheere the military personnel are able to do the work more efficiently and at a lower cost since they are trainrd to do the work anyway. We also need to cut the wasteful spending of congressprior to downgrading the security of this Nation. also utalize the military to secure the borders and round up all illegals with their childeren and send them back to whichever country they came from forcing them to repay all govermental aid and back taxes through the confiscation of their homes and vehicles which they have purchased here as this will reduce the burden on this nations spending this will stop the need for downsizing the military
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Spc 1 J W.
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Morale - lately morale has been discounted because it cannot be quantified.  Morale is not easily marked down on a commander's spreadsheet/scorecard like required training or medical requirements.  When morale is low your troops don't want to know you.  When morale is high the troops will do almost anything, which is what you want especially when the money is tight.  Ignore morale at your peril. 

So how is high morale achieved?  Many of our current "higher-ups" are managers not leaders.  We got to this point because we have become the scorecard military.  Managers are selected for promotion because they know how to budget and check off all their boxes for promotion.  But I don't want to work for a manager, I am not inspired by a manager.  I want to work for a leader.

We have to get back to realistic appraisals for enlisted and officer.  Not everyone is "truly among the best".  Awards are not done evenhandedly.  Too much of appraisals and awards are subjective instead of objective.  Morale suffers when there is a real or perceived inequity.  How we recognize our people says a lot about us as an organization.  Keep the best, dump the rest.

Lastly is utilization.  Identify those that are underemployed or over employed.  Personnel in both these groups will walk away from the military when they have their chance.
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MSG Michael Shannon
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Get rid of monetary incentives for reenlistment. Too much
money is spent when it should be for the flag. instead offer non monetary
reenlistment incentives such as retirement points, duty assignment of choice,
or special schools such as airborne air assault or pathfinder.



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1SG Sr. Field Clinical Engineer
1SG (Join to see)
>1 y
We are already losing top talent to civilian employers. Monetary incentives, competitive pay, educational benefits, and bonuses for the specialty jobs are what truly motivate most troops, in my opinion. I work for J&J and make a ton of money. Incentives, education benefits, and the opportunity of increased pay and retirement through promotion are huge factors in my reenlistment decision making process. While specialized schools are great incentives, they are not something all Soldiers are seeking.
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Cpl Nathan H.
Cpl Nathan H.
>1 y
Non-monetary training, can often be more expensive than $10,000. I feel that bonus incentives are the only way to keep certain MOS's competitive with the civilian markets. Otherwise you end up like me doing four years then seeing, Amazon will pay me double to do the same thing, and not fuck with my personal life.
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MSG Paralegal Specialist
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I believe that keeping tuition assistance funded and available while ensuring that the Noncommissioned Officers Education System and the Officers Education System are current, relevant, and meaningful will keep the spear sharp. The two previous/current wars have been executed with great precision as accomplished in part by the greater level of responsibility placed upon the Strategic Sergeant (Newell 08) and the On the Scene Commander. The critical thinking skills of our greatest instruments, our Soldiers, should not be allowed to dull, but instead should be sharpened with better training, schooling and appreciation of their ability to wield additional responsibility.
The military is the only business that puts so much responsibility and risk onto its newest members. Its leader’s lookout for their training and education would be the least they could do as one day those Strategic Sergeants and junior lieutenants will be the leaders of our military and need to be able to think critically for roles of greater responsibility, as well as the caring for the new junior Soldiers in which they are leading.
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SPC UH-60 Helicopter Repairer
SPC (Join to see)
11 y
I BELIEVE THIS IS THE MOST REFINED ANSWER IVE SEEN ON HERE AND If they are going to downsize they might as well keep the education going on those left so that when it is time to move forward and strengthen the ranks again the training will be more advanced and will achieve much greater success when we are deployed in shorter time frames. At least that would be the hope. I mean isn't that what we've been taught our entire lives. The key to success in anything in life is an education. For those Soldiers who do want to stay or get to stay whether they are Officers,NCO,Enlisted,Reserve,etc.., Start upgrading their education, new methods of training in and out of combat situations. This will save our Gov't time & money with the shorter deployments. Also, Instead of shipping all of that equipment to where ever we are deployed and then leaving it there because its too expensive to ship back. At least try to sell it to other Countries and regain some of the money and put it back into the military budget so that we are not the ones to lose our pay first when Gov't closures happen. There is ZERO reason and there should be a zero tolerance policy for leaving all of that expensive equipment over there. Recoup that money by selling it to the contractors or the countries we are in even at cost. The military can be self sufficient if we learn to cut our own spending within. I am a reservist and I would love to be an enlisted. I've asked to be full time for the last 6 years. Some recruiter was always giving me a reason why I couldn't. But, I am good at my job. Keep those of us that want to stay and train us. I've been passed over for rank for the last 5 years and I still re-enlist lol I love the Army, PERIOD. they have to stay in shape, do their jobs, no corrective actions, at least nothing serious, these kids that are right out of High School that want to join for just 2 or 3 years just to say they were in and aren't really serious about it. It is just like in the Civilian world, low man on totem pole goes first unless they qualify better than some one else that has been there longer. Downsize but first we are a Military Family all of us world-wide need to start being more frugal. If we could just retain that money within we would be so much better off.
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SSG Ed Mikus
SSG Ed Mikus
11 y
Take care of our people, we may need them back. but even if we don't we have seen how hard it is to rebuild a bad image after after Nam, lets not repeat the bad parts of our history. 
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Cpl Nathan H.
Cpl Nathan H.
>1 y
Tuition Assistance is GOLD!!! Why every single unit is not shoving this down their juniors throats is beyond my comprehending. Schooling payed for while your in. The two main reasons why my juniors didn't take advantage of it was....
1. They knew jack about it therefore didn't care (unacceptable)
2. They didn't trust it, after the first time it got cancelled didn't even bother again, then guess what it got cancelled again.
3. In certain commands your just too busy to take advantage of it. I'm looking at you squadrons constantly 12 on 12 off.

How many broke kids join the military just to pay for school. They are attempting to better themselves. Every Marine I knew that was taking advantage of TA and pursuing education, was the best in their department.
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