Posted on Nov 11, 2015
What are your thoughts on the "Fight for $15?"
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Fast food and other service workers are uniting to demand the minimum wage be set at $15 an hour. They also want a union. What are your thoughts? The personal feelings I have are mixed. Fast food is supposed to be a starter job for most. Of course I don't live in a large city. But then again, most fast food workers I have encountered aren't the sharpest spork in the plastic wrap. What say you?
Economy
Jobs
Sociology
Employment
Minimum Wage
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 130
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Who aspires to work minimum wage jobs? A basic understanding of economics will reveal that this is stupid. Why should a cashier at Wendys make more money than a SPC in the military.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Incomparable.
Food Service Workers are UNSKILLED LABOR. Military is SKILLED Labor. Apples and Oranges. They shouldn't make the same. They shouldn't be used in the same sentence. Not Comparable professions. As a matter of fact, one is not a "profession" it is Unskilled Labor.
Food Service Workers are UNSKILLED LABOR. Military is SKILLED Labor. Apples and Oranges. They shouldn't make the same. They shouldn't be used in the same sentence. Not Comparable professions. As a matter of fact, one is not a "profession" it is Unskilled Labor.
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CDR Kenneth Kaiser
There are two labor categories: exempt and hourly. Exempt are exempt from the wage and hour standards; are usually paid for what they know vice what they do. The hourly or wage and hour folks are entitled to overtime, are subject to standards as to the most they can work in a given day or week that sort of thing. The minimum wage law then applies to wage and hour folks.
Now given that service members are treated like wage and hour folks in terms of their pay, but like the exempt folks in terms of labor conditions, wages etc. In other words they get paid a salary that doesn't vary month to month. They are not eligible for overtime pay, within their rate or pay grade they get the same pay whether they are in the top ten percent of those in the same technical specialty and most of them would love an eight hour day. Now I recognize their may be certain incentives for certain specialties (e.g. doctors, special forces etc) but the discussion is about minimum wage so we are assuming low or no skill. My point is that when comparing service members to civilian workers you need to realize that service members are different and do make less per hour if you assume the typical 12 to 16 hour day and add to it that that pay can be earned in any environment or geographic location and that your stability can be interrupted by orders.
So given that some have said that Mc Donald's has not suffered by being forced to raise its pay for minimum wage jobs. I think those who are long in tooth such as I, will recall for instance when the Big Mac was appropriately named but the size of the patty has constantly decreased, same for other cost cutting moves. Some have mentioned the minimum wage as 5.00 per hour in our state it is something like 9.50 others more others less. The point is that there is no requirement for you to stay in a minimum wage job. You can acquire skills and improve your position in life you can even open your own business. There are no restrictions. It is not up to the government or others who are working to make sure you are able to exist. There are programs to help but if you choose to stay at that level and not better yourself than shame on you.
Raising the minimum wage to a national standard of 15.00 has significant impact on inflation and business. I work with a pre school as an economic advisor. We pay above minimum wage and have certain labor categories. If the wages go to 15 across the board we will be forced to raise our tuition costs significantly which will make the product unaffordable to some which then decreases the amount we contribute in taxes best case to being forced to close the doors worst case.
Now given that service members are treated like wage and hour folks in terms of their pay, but like the exempt folks in terms of labor conditions, wages etc. In other words they get paid a salary that doesn't vary month to month. They are not eligible for overtime pay, within their rate or pay grade they get the same pay whether they are in the top ten percent of those in the same technical specialty and most of them would love an eight hour day. Now I recognize their may be certain incentives for certain specialties (e.g. doctors, special forces etc) but the discussion is about minimum wage so we are assuming low or no skill. My point is that when comparing service members to civilian workers you need to realize that service members are different and do make less per hour if you assume the typical 12 to 16 hour day and add to it that that pay can be earned in any environment or geographic location and that your stability can be interrupted by orders.
So given that some have said that Mc Donald's has not suffered by being forced to raise its pay for minimum wage jobs. I think those who are long in tooth such as I, will recall for instance when the Big Mac was appropriately named but the size of the patty has constantly decreased, same for other cost cutting moves. Some have mentioned the minimum wage as 5.00 per hour in our state it is something like 9.50 others more others less. The point is that there is no requirement for you to stay in a minimum wage job. You can acquire skills and improve your position in life you can even open your own business. There are no restrictions. It is not up to the government or others who are working to make sure you are able to exist. There are programs to help but if you choose to stay at that level and not better yourself than shame on you.
Raising the minimum wage to a national standard of 15.00 has significant impact on inflation and business. I work with a pre school as an economic advisor. We pay above minimum wage and have certain labor categories. If the wages go to 15 across the board we will be forced to raise our tuition costs significantly which will make the product unaffordable to some which then decreases the amount we contribute in taxes best case to being forced to close the doors worst case.
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SFC(P) (Join to see)
The same reason a congress member makes more than Military, when they are both Serving the Country...one with little or no risk, and the other with 1000% risk.
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Angelia Byrne
According to current demographics in the USA, 50% are single parent families. Often, these families are just keeping afloat financially. I believe $15.00/hr is a good thing to have. In terms of the trade-offs, the retail customer should not have to pay all of the rate hike. I believe there probably should be pay cuts and less employees at the corporate level in order to pay hourly wages for those who are working in the stores.
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Minimum wage is for entry level jobs. These jobs were not designed to be a sole source of income. They were for kids in high school needing experience or as a supplement to another source of income. People are just not willing to get out of their comfort zone and do what it takes to get meaningful work i.e. college, military, trade school. Just like politicians, entry level jobs were never meant to be careers. If you have minimum skills, minimum work ethic, minimum motivation and minimum drive, why should you get more than what you deserve. This is just another example of freeloading, self entitled, lazy people that depend on someone else's labor. Those are my thoughts.
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LtCol David Gran
I agree. There seems to be a feeling among some of the politicians and lobbyists that someone with a minimum wage job should be able to support a household. Maybe a bachelor sharing the rent with a couple other guys/gals, but not a family. The problem is that we have a lot of people unemployed or underemployed. Government can't create jobs like business can so it always attempts some proxy for a good solution.
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SSG Gerhard S.
It's important to note that those making minimum wage currently, and historically make up only about 2% of the workforce, and that the population making such a wage is weighted heavily in the direction of the inexperienced, untested, and unskilled young.
The point to the minimum wage is NOT to support a family on 40 or fewer hours per week, though with two household members working at the minimum wage, that's $7.25 x 2 (employees) x 2080 hrs/yr = $30160/year puts them at double the Federal poverty level of $15430/ yr for a 2 person household. Adding a second part job to the mix adds to the income as well. (I, for one, can't remember a time that I haven't worked more than one job.) Even as an E-4 on active duty I worked at a local animal shelter, and working at a roadhouse a few evenings a week.
Clearly this is not a lot of money, particularly as our Federal government and it's minion the Federal Reserve continue to inflate our dollars thereby reducing everyone's purchasing power but that's an argument for another post.
The point is, the Minimum wage is not, and should not make people comfortable in such a position. It should instead encourage the unskilled, the untested, and the under-educated to grow in each of these qualities and then become able to demand a higher wage after proving themselves as a skilled, reliable and educated employee who knows how to effectively interact with other workers, with management, and with customers.
And to the argument that some employers never give raises above the minimum wage, the option remains to work elsewhere, for that employer is actually hurting his bottom line by NOT retaining skilled, educated, and reliable employees.
The point to the minimum wage is NOT to support a family on 40 or fewer hours per week, though with two household members working at the minimum wage, that's $7.25 x 2 (employees) x 2080 hrs/yr = $30160/year puts them at double the Federal poverty level of $15430/ yr for a 2 person household. Adding a second part job to the mix adds to the income as well. (I, for one, can't remember a time that I haven't worked more than one job.) Even as an E-4 on active duty I worked at a local animal shelter, and working at a roadhouse a few evenings a week.
Clearly this is not a lot of money, particularly as our Federal government and it's minion the Federal Reserve continue to inflate our dollars thereby reducing everyone's purchasing power but that's an argument for another post.
The point is, the Minimum wage is not, and should not make people comfortable in such a position. It should instead encourage the unskilled, the untested, and the under-educated to grow in each of these qualities and then become able to demand a higher wage after proving themselves as a skilled, reliable and educated employee who knows how to effectively interact with other workers, with management, and with customers.
And to the argument that some employers never give raises above the minimum wage, the option remains to work elsewhere, for that employer is actually hurting his bottom line by NOT retaining skilled, educated, and reliable employees.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Oh yeah, one more thing, if one looks to the discipline of economics instead of to the billowing winds of politics for answers, one will find that Wages are prices, and like any other price, should be defined by the marketplace and not by a bunch of politicians trying to garner political favor or votes. This is why Wendy's is starting pay at $12-15 per hour in parts of Texas and North Dakota. It's a matter of supply and demand not a matter of emotion or politics.
Wages should go up as the result of efficiencies in production, or as one's value as an employ increases through measurable performance. By doing so, there are only positive long term effects on the economy. Raising wages by government edict has exactly the opposite long term economic effects... namely, negative.
Wages should go up as the result of efficiencies in production, or as one's value as an employ increases through measurable performance. By doing so, there are only positive long term effects on the economy. Raising wages by government edict has exactly the opposite long term economic effects... namely, negative.
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Sgt (Join to see)
Pay rates should be parallel with one of two things: Either investment risked/gained/lost or production gains/losses.
In other words, the heads of businesses and investors make such large sums because they often risked the most (i.e. their time, personal funds, credit scores...etc) to get the business running. LOTS of people have dreams of wealth, invest, and then become broke. So rightfully so, the investor or profit agent should reap the benefits of their hard work or risk.
The minimum wage worker OFTEN has little or no long term investment in their work. They didn't risk anything by showing up to push buttons on a register and likely didn't spend years or thousands of dollars being educated to obtain such a job.
While the "high school job" statement might not be totally accurate, based on age range of these workers, the idea is correct. Min wage jobs aren't meant to be careers or long term objectives. Nor do they produce a realistic amount of profits and risk to sanction unrealistic sums of pay.
If an employee is dissatisfied with their pay, (given few exceptions) they do have options. Student loans for education. Get another job. Specialize in something. Work hard to gain rank/position (as most of us do).
In other words, the heads of businesses and investors make such large sums because they often risked the most (i.e. their time, personal funds, credit scores...etc) to get the business running. LOTS of people have dreams of wealth, invest, and then become broke. So rightfully so, the investor or profit agent should reap the benefits of their hard work or risk.
The minimum wage worker OFTEN has little or no long term investment in their work. They didn't risk anything by showing up to push buttons on a register and likely didn't spend years or thousands of dollars being educated to obtain such a job.
While the "high school job" statement might not be totally accurate, based on age range of these workers, the idea is correct. Min wage jobs aren't meant to be careers or long term objectives. Nor do they produce a realistic amount of profits and risk to sanction unrealistic sums of pay.
If an employee is dissatisfied with their pay, (given few exceptions) they do have options. Student loans for education. Get another job. Specialize in something. Work hard to gain rank/position (as most of us do).
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Inflation....inflation....inflation. If Min Wage doubles or increases significantly it pushes the pay scale across the board. The person who has worked for several years and is making $15/hr now wants $20-25/hr, with a ripple effect across the payscale. The same work is being done, but the "dollar" so speak now has less value. Prices of everything goes up, but in essence nothing has changed. No new work is going to be produced with the new raise. If anything it sets off a chain reaction of inflation which is being held in check by artificially low interest rates. As a nurse speaking now - You think healthcare is expensive now, wait till you have to pay every health worker and across the board 20%-30% raise.
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SFC (Join to see)
Fast food industry is not a real skilled labor that requires education and training. They don't offer college degrees or vocational certificates for flipping burgers. Why in the heck does food service workers demand the minimum wage to be $15/hour?
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1SG (Join to see)
LTC (Join to see) - I concur. I understand that sports produce money because go and watch them and also buy merchandise, but at the same time, it is over rated, it is too much. I am ok with current minimum wage, but please, do not raise prices, that is what is killing us.
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SSG (Join to see)
Everyone feels entitled nowadays. I can see the logic now.... He or She makes $20 dollars per hour working as a police officer, why can't I get a raise? Makes me shake my head!
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SFC Michael Smith
Maybe it would entice some to work instead of staying on public assistance. I think McDonalds could afford some significant raise.
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There should be no minimum wage. If a worker and employees agree on a rate their should be no law that prevents that.
The minimum wage kills entry level jobs and hurts the poor.
The minimum wage kills entry level jobs and hurts the poor.
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SGT James P. Davidson, MSM
Sgt. Disher -
And interesting question you have posed:
"I wonder what would happen IF there wasn't a minimum wage."
Once upon a time, that's exactly how it was. Electricity was harnessed, and used for communication through the invention of the telegraph. Transportation changed forever with the advent of the train and rail systems. The majority of the people worked hard to 'earn' a living. Bridges and roads were built. Really, a lot of progress was made...
Since the government decided that it needed to regulate wages, we have had a major economic depression, broken people and destroyed lives with the tax code, created 'big oil', 'big pharma', et cetera, by ensuring some businesses simply couldn't afford to stay open.
I suggest a trip through the economic history of the country. There are plenty of books and websites related to the subject. It's almost a sad time in our nation's history...
As to your thought:
"...employers would be forced to pay what the employee is worth in order to retain good workers."
We already do that in the business world today. That's not 'the' or 'an' issue. How, you ask?
The "good workers" are not at the bottom of the wage list. You don't see Burger King offering the 'good' entry-level burger-flipper $0.50 more per hour to prevent him from taking a position with McDonald's. What you will see, however, is money paid, benefits offered, et cetera, in order to keep the guy who, through some critical thinking and planning skill, just saved the company a few million a year.
If there was no minimum wage, it would factually look something like this:
You want the job or not, because I have a line of people willing to do it for what I'm offering.
And interesting question you have posed:
"I wonder what would happen IF there wasn't a minimum wage."
Once upon a time, that's exactly how it was. Electricity was harnessed, and used for communication through the invention of the telegraph. Transportation changed forever with the advent of the train and rail systems. The majority of the people worked hard to 'earn' a living. Bridges and roads were built. Really, a lot of progress was made...
Since the government decided that it needed to regulate wages, we have had a major economic depression, broken people and destroyed lives with the tax code, created 'big oil', 'big pharma', et cetera, by ensuring some businesses simply couldn't afford to stay open.
I suggest a trip through the economic history of the country. There are plenty of books and websites related to the subject. It's almost a sad time in our nation's history...
As to your thought:
"...employers would be forced to pay what the employee is worth in order to retain good workers."
We already do that in the business world today. That's not 'the' or 'an' issue. How, you ask?
The "good workers" are not at the bottom of the wage list. You don't see Burger King offering the 'good' entry-level burger-flipper $0.50 more per hour to prevent him from taking a position with McDonald's. What you will see, however, is money paid, benefits offered, et cetera, in order to keep the guy who, through some critical thinking and planning skill, just saved the company a few million a year.
If there was no minimum wage, it would factually look something like this:
You want the job or not, because I have a line of people willing to do it for what I'm offering.
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CPT Jack Durish
Where in the Constitution did We the People give the federal government license to interfere in our private contracts including contracts of employment? We the People can deal with unfair labor practices so long as the federal government does not intervene on either side of disputes. Indeed, We were able to win several labor disputes even when the federal government sent armed forces to support rapacious employers.
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LTC (Join to see)
Many western nations do not have a min wage. In high cost of living areas there is essentially no min wage now say the going rate for labor is higher than min wage.
Think of it this way Min wage laws make it illegal for you to get paid 2 dollars an hour to do something you would do for free or are doing for free now.
Think of it this way Min wage laws make it illegal for you to get paid 2 dollars an hour to do something you would do for free or are doing for free now.
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<p>As a small business owner here is my take on the minimum wage. Wages are just like prices for goods that you sell. You are usually paying for what the thing you are buying can do and how well it does it.</p><p>I pay my employees starting at $12/hr basically doing inventory and counting things. That is a very good wage. It is very competitive for the skillset and when I am hiring I get 1000's of resumes'. Most fast food workers make MORE than min. wage. They currently make about $9/hr. Now for a 16 year old kid to expect to make $15/hr which is what some LPN's make is obsurd. Look at the difference in skillset.</p><p>How much money my business makes does not change how much your work is worth. Of course I provide incentives when they directly increase revenue they receive a bonus. But whether my business make $600K/year or $5million/year doesnt change the fact that you are a secretary and are paid a competitve rate for that position.</p><p>I dont think there should be a minimum wage at all just like there's not a maximum wage. If you want to make more then aspire to do more. Starting and running a successfull business is a tremendous risk. There's no minimum wage for me if my business isnt succesful. </p><p>Wages should be competitive just like prices of goods. If the wage is too low for you then dont take the job. Wages will go up if business owners cant hire anyone. The fact that they can hire you or someone else for that price let's you know how much that job is worth. Your family is YOUR responsibility, not your employers.</p>
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CDR Kenneth Kaiser
There are several variables here. First given the fellow was 70 there is a certain amount of age discrimination which will make it difficult, but if the work is worth more than 5.50/ then either negotiate a better wage or move.
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If you can't even get my simple order for my children's kids meal right, then you don't deserve 15 an hour. On average entry level police ofiicer make about $13 an hour, and someone with no skills wants to make 15 dollars for flipping burgers. Not gonna happen.<br>
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If you've got minimum skills, minimum education, show minimum motivation, and provide minimum contribution, why should someone be forced to pay you more than the minimum?
You GET what you GIVE.
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SSG (Join to see)
Walmart doesn't pay people minimum wage ever that I saw while working there for 3 years. I was hired at age 18 with no experience at $8.50 an hour. within 6 months I was a supervisor at $9.40. 6 months later at my one year mark I got a $.40 raise to $9.80. A year later I was promoted to Asset Protection making $11.20. Opportunities are there, but I honestly think I got lucky. The problem with Walmart is you hit a ceiling in certain areas of the store and the only way up is to get a position that opens maybe once every 5/6 years....Thats where I saw most people suffering.
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CDR Kenneth Kaiser
That is not necessarily a bad thing. First during that time you acquired certain skills and knowledge that should be marketable in other areas. Given that before you hit the hard ceiling, you assess those skills and determine where else you can apply them and plan a move accordingly to continue your progress. Maybe acquire some additional education whatever. So unless you have done it wrong you are better off now than when you were better off now then you were when you started. It sounds as if you are doing it right.
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Wrong answer! Tell part-timers to go out & get 2nd or 3rd job, or work and train harder, then EARN a higher position/ better career. Go to Europe if you want handouts, or sitting on your backsides. These babies sound like budding socialists!
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CH (MAJ) (Join to see)
Just like Government bailouts, We foot the bills for the UK "kindness." Thus, we'll pay more for sub-par service. That's just the beginning...
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If you want to raise min. wage to $15/hr thats fine. What you will have then is half as many jobs and less businesses. So those folks complaining about their $9/hr will now be making $0/hr.
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CPO (Join to see)
I see also if they raised the minimum wage to that, fast food companies along with other businesses would replace workers with automated self-serve systems. They get what they want then get replaced by machines. It happened in the automotive industry, I can see it happening here. $15/hr in one hand, higher unemployment in the other. No thoughts of long term ramifications here lol.
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Sometimes service members can be out of touch with the realities of civilian America. At least a half dozen people have pointed out that minimum wage jobs are not supposed to support families. But the reality is that right now, with the current state of our economy, there are not other higher paying jobs to be had. <div><br></div><div>Only CW2 Evans has brought up what I feel to be the real problem, which is that companies that pay minimum wage are relying on the federal and state government to fill in the gap low wages create with food stamps and other public assistance support. </div><div><br></div><div>The reason that the market cannot adjust to a living wage is because 1) right now it is an employer's market. There are more people in need of work than there are jobs; basic economics will tell you that this deflates wages. 2) People can survive on minimum wage because social welfare programs make it possible. </div><div><br></div><div>Recent calls to eliminate social welfare programs are misguided. You are punishing the victims. Many of the people who demand this, follow their comments up with "get a job!" Again, this is out of touch with the reality that these people have jobs. Welfare beneficiaries <span class="ft" style="font-size: small; font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 16px;">who are neither elderly nor disabled — and do not live in a <span style="font-weight: bold;">working</span> household — received only 9% of the benefits. What a lot of people are saying is that the working poor should not be paid a living wage *and* should not get social support. And the end game there is what?</span></div><div><br></div><div>In my opinion, employers whose employees receive social welfare should have to repay those funds as part of their tax liability, pro-rated by hours worked/percentage of income (you are probably reaching for the thumbs down button, but read the whole thing first). This would encourage employers to pay a living wage, it would eliminate some of the fraud of employers under-reporting wages ("under the table" payments) and the fraud of people receiving unreported wages and social welfare, and would solve the issue of jobs for high school kids - they are not eligible to apply for social welfare programs. It would lower the number of people on the welfare roles and would avoid setting up the kind of false economy that a $15 minimum wage would surely cause. Wouldn't employers just pass the tax cost on to consumers? Initially, but if more people came off social welfare programs, taxes would go down overall. Employers would have the flexibility to assume the tax hit for some of their employees rather than raise wages across the board, which would probably be cheaper for them. It would allow them to create incentives for hard work by paying bonuses (for example), rather than being forced to pay all workers the same. </div><div><br></div><div>Just a thought...</div>
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Suspended Profile
Very well said, CPT (Join to see). I couldn't have done better...
Thank you for being a voice of reason
Thank you for being a voice of reason
CDR Kenneth Kaiser
Captain,
One problem with taxing the companies that pay minimum wage is that pay is based upon skill and if I have a company that pays minimum wage then my workforce is primarily unskilled workers. It means my business requires little training and my products sell for very little. If I am making something simple like hamburgers and fries and my machine take the burden of math off my employees (i.e. the machine tells them how much change to give) then my profit margin is most likely small as well. Therefore if I have to now pay for someone who is receiving benefits from the government, I can either pay (and raise my prices), or I can let them go and find an employee with better money management skills.
As you correctly pointed out our economy is in shambles right now because a variety of reasons but mostly the government. What you propose will not correct the problem. We need to create an environment to allow business to grow.
You are doing well and I am sure that it is primarily due to your efforts. ( I used to work Joint systems) It would not be fair to take from your salary and give to someone who is making less nor would I want to do that. That is your decision to make to support charitable efforts etc. The same for business. In the business you describe many are offering tuition assistance now some are offering other incentives.
There are so many variables contributing to the unemployment /underemployment problem that simply imposing new taxes will not correct. We need to examine the social services support programs and ensure that they are properly administered and that they are helping those in need. An overhaul of social services programs would free up money that could be applied to helping those truly in need.
Finally, good luck in your career. You will obviously do well
One problem with taxing the companies that pay minimum wage is that pay is based upon skill and if I have a company that pays minimum wage then my workforce is primarily unskilled workers. It means my business requires little training and my products sell for very little. If I am making something simple like hamburgers and fries and my machine take the burden of math off my employees (i.e. the machine tells them how much change to give) then my profit margin is most likely small as well. Therefore if I have to now pay for someone who is receiving benefits from the government, I can either pay (and raise my prices), or I can let them go and find an employee with better money management skills.
As you correctly pointed out our economy is in shambles right now because a variety of reasons but mostly the government. What you propose will not correct the problem. We need to create an environment to allow business to grow.
You are doing well and I am sure that it is primarily due to your efforts. ( I used to work Joint systems) It would not be fair to take from your salary and give to someone who is making less nor would I want to do that. That is your decision to make to support charitable efforts etc. The same for business. In the business you describe many are offering tuition assistance now some are offering other incentives.
There are so many variables contributing to the unemployment /underemployment problem that simply imposing new taxes will not correct. We need to examine the social services support programs and ensure that they are properly administered and that they are helping those in need. An overhaul of social services programs would free up money that could be applied to helping those truly in need.
Finally, good luck in your career. You will obviously do well
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CDR Kenneth Kaiser
One other thing you might notice that the minimum wage in one area might be 5.50 in others it is 9.50 others 15.00 already. So if we force 15.00 across the board then we will really adversely impact some economies and others not so much. The question then becomes what is the distribution on the minimum wages across the country. In other words in how many locations would you be imposing a 300% increase in the minimum wage and how many would you be imposing a 5-10 % increase? That too can make a significant difference in the purchasing power of those additional dollars as well as the cost of goods.
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