Posted on Dec 22, 2015
Was it appropriate for Virginia to change its concealed carry reciprocity rules?
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https://www.nraila.org/articles/20151222/nra-condemns-virginia-attorney-general-s-decision-to-play-politics-with-self-defense-rights
I think this is treason. What say you?
I think this is treason. What say you?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 16
SSG(P) (Join to see) - Treason? Really? I am very interested to hear how you could define this as "treason."
First, let's substitute "gun control" with any of the following words: "Medicine," "Architecture," or "Law." If a doctor or an architect want to work across state lines, they must meet the certifications of each of those states. Should a lawyer in New Mexico try a case in Arkansas, he better have passed the bar in both states. Virginia refuses to recognize certifications from certain other states. So what? This happens all the time in technical professions. There is no helmet law for motorcyclists in Colorado. But, if you cross the state line into Nebraska, you'd better have a hard hat on your grape.
Converse to your suggestion of treason, I say this is a perfect example of the 10th Amendment in action. You may not like Virginia's law. While it may be an example of "bench politics," it's certainly legal. To toss out the tag "treason" is an irresponsible use of that word.
First, let's substitute "gun control" with any of the following words: "Medicine," "Architecture," or "Law." If a doctor or an architect want to work across state lines, they must meet the certifications of each of those states. Should a lawyer in New Mexico try a case in Arkansas, he better have passed the bar in both states. Virginia refuses to recognize certifications from certain other states. So what? This happens all the time in technical professions. There is no helmet law for motorcyclists in Colorado. But, if you cross the state line into Nebraska, you'd better have a hard hat on your grape.
Converse to your suggestion of treason, I say this is a perfect example of the 10th Amendment in action. You may not like Virginia's law. While it may be an example of "bench politics," it's certainly legal. To toss out the tag "treason" is an irresponsible use of that word.
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GySgt (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - "shall not be infringed" is also included in that amendment. Restricting how an individual can bear said arms is an infringement. I'll have to check the exact verbage of the full faith and credit clause.......but I don't think it says anything about "public acts" and what "issues" are you referring to? In the mean time, I just won't be going to Virginia, and encouraging others to do the same.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
GySgt (Join to see)
Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.
Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.
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Capt Mark Strobl
GySgt (Join to see) - Bottom Line: Virginia has exercised it's right to provide extended guidelines for those exercising their 2nd Am rights. There is NOTHING in the US Constitution that defines "how" firearms should be carried. The Virginia AG did not revoke their own citizens' CC capacities. They simply have moved to NOT recognize other (but, not all) states' CC's. This decision does NOT impact one's ability to form a well-regulated militia nor impede its citizens rights to own firearms. Thus, this decision is both legal and Constitutional. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people --hmmm... Sounds like the 10th Amendment to me. Like I originally stated, it is my opinion that this is "bench politics."
On a personal note: If you're ever in my neck of the woods, I'd be happy to host you at any of our wonderful marksmanship ranges or guide you to a good hunting spot. I appreciate your passion, Gunny. Semper Fi.
On a personal note: If you're ever in my neck of the woods, I'd be happy to host you at any of our wonderful marksmanship ranges or guide you to a good hunting spot. I appreciate your passion, Gunny. Semper Fi.
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GySgt (Join to see)
Appreciate the invite sir. Infringing on a person bearing arms, is contrary to a specifically enumerated amendment, and the 10th shouldn't apply. Unfortunately the 2nd amendment is the only one that it is ok to restrict. My biggest issue with this is the false pretenses the Attorney General used to do this. Most of those 25 states have identical or even higher requirements than VA.
I also still don't understand how concealed carry is the only personal license that the full faith and credit clause doesn't apply to, the Supreme Court recently ruled that marriage licenses must be honored regardless of state law..........or even the will of the people in some states for that matter.
I also still don't understand how concealed carry is the only personal license that the full faith and credit clause doesn't apply to, the Supreme Court recently ruled that marriage licenses must be honored regardless of state law..........or even the will of the people in some states for that matter.
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I'm guessing when it's convenient for you, you're all about states' powers, but when it's not, it's treason.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT William Howell - Also, um, the Attorney General is an elected position in Virginia. The more you know. :)
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PO2 Mark Saffell
Funny how this works both ways. I happen to be on the side of States Rights, Therefore I think it was wrong for the Supreme Court to make same sex marriage the law of the land. But even though I favor States Rights it still gets very muddy. Take for example Pot Smoking. 6 states allow that but that is in direct conflict with Federal Law and if we had a President that actually enforced the laws those six states would be in hot water and a ton of arrests made...So See very muddy. I guess States Rights isn't a black and white subject like people argue here. What is funny is when its a conservative point they are all about states rights and the left argues against it. When its something the left likes they are all for it. Seems we are for or against it depending on the subject.
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LCDR (Join to see)
I'm for the Supreme Court decision on marriage because I see it as a 14th Amendment consideration, and thus the morally and legally correct choice. There is nothing at all legally or morally compelling to stand against Virginia when they say that you have to obey their laws when you're within their borders. If you're not a fan, VA - not unlike my home state of PA - is open-carry. The wording of this discussion, with regard to treason, was hyperbolic and unfounded, with a touch of immaturity.
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I think it is a state issue.
I'm surprised that the legislature granted executive powers to the Attorney General to make this kind of call, but it is up to Virginia to fix it.
As to the issue itself, I don't really see a problem with Virginia having it's own requirements for a CC permit. I think it should have a high standard and required training. This does not infringe on someone's right to bear arms, it just means their are requirements for carrying those arms around concealed.
I'm surprised that the legislature granted executive powers to the Attorney General to make this kind of call, but it is up to Virginia to fix it.
As to the issue itself, I don't really see a problem with Virginia having it's own requirements for a CC permit. I think it should have a high standard and required training. This does not infringe on someone's right to bear arms, it just means their are requirements for carrying those arms around concealed.
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1SG (Join to see)
PO3 (Join to see), don't think it is a money grab? There are an awful lot of out of state residents in Virginia, and they happen to be the kind of folks that own guns. Many are folks in uniform. another plausible theory would be that the AG wants to build a registry - the kind of thing that makes a lot of gun owners nervous.
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1SG (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - the "he wants to run for national office" theory is very plausible indeed.
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PO3 (Join to see)
1SG (Join to see) - I believe he is playing an ideological games or trying to solidify he base support.
You know what .... on second thought ... you might be right. So all those gun owner has more reason to become VA residents ... and become a taxpayer in VA .... hmmm .... that is a cool excuse to drum up news headline.
You know what .... on second thought ... you might be right. So all those gun owner has more reason to become VA residents ... and become a taxpayer in VA .... hmmm .... that is a cool excuse to drum up news headline.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
1SG (Join to see) - If you look at "many" AGs, they tend to aspire to Lieutenant Governors, Governors, HoR, and Senator positions later on.
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I'm in VA. It's part of his "vested Power."
Legislatively, he's allowed to do it. Doesn't make it correct. But it is within his scope of Power (of Office).
I disagree with it. I think he's wrong. But that doesn't mean make it Treason. It just means he (ab)used the Power he had at his disposal, within the confines of the Law, as written. This is why Letter of the Law and Spirit of the Law must be "mirrored" as closely as possibly, to prevent the perversion of intent.
Legislatively, he's allowed to do it. Doesn't make it correct. But it is within his scope of Power (of Office).
I disagree with it. I think he's wrong. But that doesn't mean make it Treason. It just means he (ab)used the Power he had at his disposal, within the confines of the Law, as written. This is why Letter of the Law and Spirit of the Law must be "mirrored" as closely as possibly, to prevent the perversion of intent.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SFC (Join to see) - It's my assessment of the situation. I may be off base, however I'd give this a 85-90% confidence level off the cuff.
This is based on a few other shifts that have happened in VA in the last couple months.
This is based on a few other shifts that have happened in VA in the last couple months.
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Capt Mark Strobl
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - Sounds like Virginians can still secure a CC permit. Worst case scenario, visitors will have to holster their firearms on the outside of their belt.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Capt Mark Strobl - Virginians AND Non-Residents can still get a VA CC permit. We're a SHALL ISSUE state. The State MUST issue, or provide the reason for denial (as in "prohibited from possession") within X days (I don't recall the exact number) or you are allowed to carry concealed. Even without a CC, we are Open Carry without CC.
This is a big deal, but not in the same way people think. We're talking about Political Maneuvering, not "infringing" in the strictest interpretation (SCOTUS Level as current).
This is a big deal, but not in the same way people think. We're talking about Political Maneuvering, not "infringing" in the strictest interpretation (SCOTUS Level as current).
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Capt Mark Strobl
Capt Mark Strobl - OK... I checked. Colorado's CC's are honored by Virginia. At least for the day, I will not have to re-apply for a CC in Virginia. We'll keep on eye on this, for sure. Great commentary!
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It makes complete sense that a State would not accept a license from another State with lower standards. Kansas has no requirements. It's for the Safety of Virginians that they would not allow untrained individuals to carry when they do not meet the State of Virginia's requirements.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Virginia is an Open Carry state. The reciprocity thing for Concealed Carry is a little more nuanced. There are "some" states that fall under the criteria you mentioned, but most of this is the VA AG not actually understanding the interactions between Federal and State gun laws and how they interact.
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GySgt (Join to see)
Except that's not what happened. Just my first hand experience WI and NC, both meet and exceed Virginia's training requirement.(I've had CCWs in all 3 states now).
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SFC Joseph Weber
GySgt (Join to see) - that seems unfair. All I know is Kansas has zero requirements. Sounds like Kansas should be on the list, maybe a little more thought with NC and WI.
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GySgt (Join to see)
I agree, but his reasoning is not supported by facts. Virginia's training requirement is laughable anyway, and really only amounts to a firearms safety class.
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Makes sense to me. If the legislature of VA has passed laws that says VA residents must meet certain requirements to carry concealed, they must have felt they were important to ensure the safety of its residents. So why wouldnt you demand that a visitor meet those same requirements to carry in VA?
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GySgt (Join to see)
Except that's not what happened, both WI and NC have higher training requirements, and a more thorough screening process than VA. I've held CCW permits in all three states. I can't speak for the other 23 states that the people of VA are choosing to discriminate against, but both WI and NC permits require more than VA to get a CCW permit.
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LTC (Join to see)
According to this report, the AG's Office and the VA State Police did an audit of states requirements and identified differences. While I dont have the personal experience you do with their licensing requirements, I suspect that there are, in fact, differences between VA and NC laws. The reason I feel confident about that is that given the intense scrutiny this action was known to receive from the NRA and gun control opponents in VA, I really doubt the VA AG and State Police examined the NC requirements, found no shortfalls, and said "let's add them to the list anyway". They had to know they would have to be able to show a difference. Plus, if they were going to exclude the states that had no shortfalls, why did they authorize any states at all?
Here's the link to the article.
http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/government-politics/article_173cb220-0e32-5e3a-b97b-6a618b5e946e.html
Here's the link to the article.
http://www.richmond.com/news/virginia/government-politics/article_173cb220-0e32-5e3a-b97b-6a618b5e946e.html
Virginia to stop honoring some out-of-state concealed handgun permits
Beginning Feb. 1, Virginia will no longer honor the out-of-state concealed handgun carry permits of gun owners from more than two dozen of the states with which the commonwealth currently has reciprocal privileges.
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Absolutely not, a concealed carry permit, should be recognized just like a driver's license or a marriage license. That being said, the AG stating that it was based on states that have lower criteria for obtaining a CCW permit is an out right lie. For instance, WI it is both more difficult, and time consuming process to get a CCW. NC also has a considerably higher criteria for CCW.
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Treason? Hardly. Constitutional? Debatable.
Politicians are like children, always testing limits. We the People are the parents. We set the limits on government in the Constitution but haven't been doing a very good job enforcing them.
So what happens when you don't teach your children to behave? Brats...
Politicians are like children, always testing limits. We the People are the parents. We set the limits on government in the Constitution but haven't been doing a very good job enforcing them.
So what happens when you don't teach your children to behave? Brats...
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As a Virginian I do not agree on any level with what the AG just did. Many states have had long standing agreements with one another allowing a legal conceal carry permit holder to carry conceal in their perspective states and vice versa. In Virginia to obtain your conceal carry you MUST complete the application for the permit, pay the cost for the permit, undergo finger printing and full back ground check, have proof of hand gun safety and use in the form of a copy of your DD214 or the completion of s certified gun safety / use course recognized by the state of VA. I just adversely with one stroke say NO to all will do allot of harm in my opinion as an example; Traveling police officers or Military personnel will most likely loose their right to carry and travel from state to state where the agreements ounce existed as a backlash other states may follow suite in spite of the AG's sweeping reaction. Stats and history have proven time and time again that a disarmed people are a target waiting to be victimized verses those that are allowed to carry and defend their family's and friends. REMEMBER THIS! The police in 98% of 911 calls arrive just in time to hang the yellow crime scene tape which means for you that your time to defend has come and gone.
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