Posted on Jun 28, 2016
Is the 2nd Amendment battle really about individualism vs communitism?
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Interesting take on the battle for the second amendment. I like to know your thoughts.
http://bigthink.com/risk-reason-and-reality/the-supreme-court-ruling-on-the-2nd-amendment-did-not-grant-an-unlimited-right-to-own-guns
http://bigthink.com/risk-reason-and-reality/the-supreme-court-ruling-on-the-2nd-amendment-did-not-grant-an-unlimited-right-to-own-guns
Rights
Constitution
2nd Amendment
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 27
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Two issues. First, let me respond to the question. The 2nd Amendment battle is really about disarming law-abiding citizens incrementally. It is a time honored strategy of the Left to disarm their opposition. They can't complete the establishment of a tyranny until they do.
Second, the article itself. I feel abandoned. Congress has abandoned We the People. They have been crafting the worst laws seen in the history of any legislative body. They're too busy dialing for dollars to fatten their campaign chests to even read the acts they are voting on. The President has been abandoning US since the Administration of Woodrow Wilson. With the sole exceptions of Calvin Coolidge and Ronald Reagan, all of them have been advancing the agenda of the progressive movement to build a more powerful White House. Now, We are abandoned by the Supreme Court. Their Constitutional competency has been diluted with appointments of lightweights such as Thomas, Roberts, Kagan, and Sotomayor. Others are commenting on the idiocy of this latest decision. I'm too depressed to pile on.
Second, the article itself. I feel abandoned. Congress has abandoned We the People. They have been crafting the worst laws seen in the history of any legislative body. They're too busy dialing for dollars to fatten their campaign chests to even read the acts they are voting on. The President has been abandoning US since the Administration of Woodrow Wilson. With the sole exceptions of Calvin Coolidge and Ronald Reagan, all of them have been advancing the agenda of the progressive movement to build a more powerful White House. Now, We are abandoned by the Supreme Court. Their Constitutional competency has been diluted with appointments of lightweights such as Thomas, Roberts, Kagan, and Sotomayor. Others are commenting on the idiocy of this latest decision. I'm too depressed to pile on.
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Capt Michael Greene
MAJ Carl Ballinger - I haven't yet begun! First is the sentience argument. Second I admit that I oppose most abortions. Third I say my morality shouldn't be imposed on another person, and if they want the abortion, that's their choice up to 24 weeks.
I didn't say, "thinking brain." Actually, I said "until it has some sort of feeling, thinking brain." (I'm more technical in a flown blown discussion, but I shortened it to meet the abbreviated format of this board.) More precisely I mean that human beings have at least sentience and rudimentary decision making. More than a cockroach and less than a hunting dog. During the first trimester, the neural connections just aren’t there.
So I'll be a little more precise here now. For brevity and accuracy, let me steal some quotes from around the web--Mayo and Johns Hopkins, mainly.
Regarding sentience: "Fetuses have reflex reactions that can make them seem pained. If you see a fetus in utero react to needle stimulation, then the common conclusion is that it must feel. But just as with paraplegics, that's a reflex that's mediated by the spinal cord; that's not a conscious reaction of the CNS. Fetuses cannot feel pain until at least the 28th week of gestation because they haven't formed the necessary nerve pathways."
Regarding consciousness: "Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation."
Regarding brain development in general: "A fetus born at the end of 24 weeks may survive in a neonatal intensive care unit."
Regarding self-awareness: You're totally right. Babies have no self-awareness, and even teens don't have a fully developed brain. But I see a difference that allows us to draw a line. Consider the other side of life--death. Doctors have to make these decisions every day (my wife [RIP] was a doctor for 20 years). Can we give every 90-year-old a heart and lung and kidney transplant? Yes, we could, but we're not gonna.
And if a patient needs surgery that is rare and expensive and only performed by one guy in Moscow? Will we raise a poor family’s hope by saying, “Sure, grandpa’s head can be reattached.” No.
Can we save a premie after 24 weeks? Possibly. A handful of literally hand-sized premies have survived with not insurmountable long-term consequences. Although it is unusual and somewhat expensive, most doctors will give that one a chance if there is a NICU space available in a city nearby. But below 24 weeks there are two problems—the fetus can’t survive on its own, and we don’t have the technology to help it.
So science draws a line.
I didn't say, "thinking brain." Actually, I said "until it has some sort of feeling, thinking brain." (I'm more technical in a flown blown discussion, but I shortened it to meet the abbreviated format of this board.) More precisely I mean that human beings have at least sentience and rudimentary decision making. More than a cockroach and less than a hunting dog. During the first trimester, the neural connections just aren’t there.
So I'll be a little more precise here now. For brevity and accuracy, let me steal some quotes from around the web--Mayo and Johns Hopkins, mainly.
Regarding sentience: "Fetuses have reflex reactions that can make them seem pained. If you see a fetus in utero react to needle stimulation, then the common conclusion is that it must feel. But just as with paraplegics, that's a reflex that's mediated by the spinal cord; that's not a conscious reaction of the CNS. Fetuses cannot feel pain until at least the 28th week of gestation because they haven't formed the necessary nerve pathways."
Regarding consciousness: "Consciousness requires a sophisticated network of highly interconnected components, nerve cells. Its physical substrate, the thalamo-cortical complex that provides consciousness with its highly elaborate content, begins to be in place between the 24th and 28th week of gestation."
Regarding brain development in general: "A fetus born at the end of 24 weeks may survive in a neonatal intensive care unit."
Regarding self-awareness: You're totally right. Babies have no self-awareness, and even teens don't have a fully developed brain. But I see a difference that allows us to draw a line. Consider the other side of life--death. Doctors have to make these decisions every day (my wife [RIP] was a doctor for 20 years). Can we give every 90-year-old a heart and lung and kidney transplant? Yes, we could, but we're not gonna.
And if a patient needs surgery that is rare and expensive and only performed by one guy in Moscow? Will we raise a poor family’s hope by saying, “Sure, grandpa’s head can be reattached.” No.
Can we save a premie after 24 weeks? Possibly. A handful of literally hand-sized premies have survived with not insurmountable long-term consequences. Although it is unusual and somewhat expensive, most doctors will give that one a chance if there is a NICU space available in a city nearby. But below 24 weeks there are two problems—the fetus can’t survive on its own, and we don’t have the technology to help it.
So science draws a line.
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Capt Michael Greene
Personally, I don't like killing anybody or anything. But I agree with Roe v Wade that the government has no business making anti-abortion laws.
I figure a lot of folks are anti-abortion until their daughter gets pregnant just before beginning college.
I figure a lot of folks are anti-abortion until their daughter gets pregnant just before beginning college.
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Capt Michael Greene
MAJ Carl Ballinger - I guess I lost sight of this thread, sorry. I have to respond to your post. Yes, the fetus is human after conception, and yes, abortion after conception is killing a human.
Consider these: One night, I was flying near North Korea, when a NK jet fired a missile at my aircraft. Did you see in Dallas, where the police used a robot to blow up the sniper? In WWII, my Dad was a private in the infantry and used rifle grenades against Germans. In those three cases, the decision to kill a human was left to the discretion of a pilot, a policeman, and a scared 19-year-old soldier from Brooklyn. My point is that our good Christian-American society considers it perfectly acceptable to give lots of people the discretion to kill humans without facing reprobation. Of course, the authority of the Constitution backs that up. The Constitution also says that the government must not interfere in the decision a mother makes to kill her unborn baby. Personally, I would try to avoid that situation, but it's not my business or the government's.
Consider these: One night, I was flying near North Korea, when a NK jet fired a missile at my aircraft. Did you see in Dallas, where the police used a robot to blow up the sniper? In WWII, my Dad was a private in the infantry and used rifle grenades against Germans. In those three cases, the decision to kill a human was left to the discretion of a pilot, a policeman, and a scared 19-year-old soldier from Brooklyn. My point is that our good Christian-American society considers it perfectly acceptable to give lots of people the discretion to kill humans without facing reprobation. Of course, the authority of the Constitution backs that up. The Constitution also says that the government must not interfere in the decision a mother makes to kill her unborn baby. Personally, I would try to avoid that situation, but it's not my business or the government's.
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Capt Michael Greene
The Fourth--privacy. The government has no business in the AB decision.
Innocence: I was pretty innocently in international airspace in peacetime.
"Any true Christian..." That phrase always scares me. It's usually followed by reasons why the Catholics, Lutherans, and many other "false" Christians are going to Hell.
But at least now I feel we've discussed the subject. Thanks.
Innocence: I was pretty innocently in international airspace in peacetime.
"Any true Christian..." That phrase always scares me. It's usually followed by reasons why the Catholics, Lutherans, and many other "false" Christians are going to Hell.
But at least now I feel we've discussed the subject. Thanks.
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I honestly think that if I, as a law abiding citizen, want to play with an M-60 machine gun, or even a 60 mm mortar, I should be able to. The government has no business making laws that infringe on the rights of good people. The purpose of government is to protect the rights of the people, not take them away.
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SFC (Join to see)
I've gotten past the idea that its completely absurd to think that someone that would commit murder would obey gun laws. Its a completely valid point but what I'm now stuck on is that the gunphobes want to blame and punish me for the actions of some other people . That includes terrorists what about my due process???
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
PFC Amthony Murray - " I suppose we will just ban explosives."
We've already placed restrictions not only on explosives but also nitrite fertilizer. The most common explosive concoction now uses nail polish remover(acetone) and peroxide. Both are available at any drug store or grocery store. It's not as good as the fertilizer/diesel fuel combination but it will do enough damage to please anyone who wants to prove a point. take away one or both of those chemicals and something else in the pantry will be found.
If you've access to a good lab you can break down seemingly innocent compound to its base chemicals and use those.
Have you ever watched video on how to make cocaine or heroin? Complicated processes worked out by illiterate natives using household products like diesel fuel, drain lye with pressure applied with a bearing press.
"Where there's a will there's a way"
We've already placed restrictions not only on explosives but also nitrite fertilizer. The most common explosive concoction now uses nail polish remover(acetone) and peroxide. Both are available at any drug store or grocery store. It's not as good as the fertilizer/diesel fuel combination but it will do enough damage to please anyone who wants to prove a point. take away one or both of those chemicals and something else in the pantry will be found.
If you've access to a good lab you can break down seemingly innocent compound to its base chemicals and use those.
Have you ever watched video on how to make cocaine or heroin? Complicated processes worked out by illiterate natives using household products like diesel fuel, drain lye with pressure applied with a bearing press.
"Where there's a will there's a way"
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PFC Amthony Murray
Yes, the amount of deadly material in a typical household is astounding. If the people do not stand up, they will be powerless to act against those with evil intent.
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CAPT Hiram Patterson
Actually we can own M-60's and 60mm mortars if we want to fork out $25,000 or more and pass the 1934 National Firearms Act application requirements including an extensive background check and purchasing a $200 Federal Tax Stamp. I have a friend of mine in Oklahoma who has an M-60 and a SAW. Suppressors are actually legal in 38 states for hunting.
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The appropriate balance between the rights of the individual and the rights of the society in which they live with an understanding that our constitution intended for the American people to be an armed people. It's not usually a huge issue in rural areas, however in cities where gun violence is a problem... politicians find it easier to attacks guns than address the underlying causes for gun violence.
Addressing a lack of economic opportunity, understaffed police forces and infrastructure in an area is much more expensive a proposition than thinking up a new gun control law.
Addressing a lack of economic opportunity, understaffed police forces and infrastructure in an area is much more expensive a proposition than thinking up a new gun control law.
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