Posted on Dec 17, 2015
If you support transgenders (or even if you don't, and want to speak out) what does this mean?
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Transgender
Gender
Freedom
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This person is not an accurate representation of the majority of transgender people. This is on the fetishy side of the community, which is nothing like most of the trans people you will ever meet or serve with. There are also reports that this person has an history of being and abuser and a peeping tom, and that their current arrangement with the "mommy" and "daddy" is mostly sexual. So please do not compare them to us.
In my opinion, what consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business. However, please do not confuse the actions of people like them with the lives of transgender service members, or transgender people in general. I am very open and out about the fact that I am transgender, but I do not share my sex life with anyone. I, and many others like me, just want to serve my country while not worrying about having to hide my very identity.
I have taken an oath to be an officer in the US Navy, and I will do that job whether I am seen as male or female. I would be more comfortable and probably have higher morale if I serve as female, but I do my job either way. There will be no days where I say "I don't see myself in combat. I'm dropping out."
In my opinion, what consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business. However, please do not confuse the actions of people like them with the lives of transgender service members, or transgender people in general. I am very open and out about the fact that I am transgender, but I do not share my sex life with anyone. I, and many others like me, just want to serve my country while not worrying about having to hide my very identity.
I have taken an oath to be an officer in the US Navy, and I will do that job whether I am seen as male or female. I would be more comfortable and probably have higher morale if I serve as female, but I do my job either way. There will be no days where I say "I don't see myself in combat. I'm dropping out."
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SGM (Join to see)
MCPO Katrina Hutcherson you have related experiences, but you have not said anything about anyone else's rights. (Well, I suppose technically you have said that transgendered have rights and anyone who objects to showering with someone with opposite body parts is discriminating them. I.e. Transgendered have all the rights.)
Even in this discussion, only LTJG (Join to see) has failed to attempt to shame me into your view by accusing me of being a racist, a homophobe, lying, or deliberately degrading people. Don't pretend to be concerned about anyone else's rights. You can't fool me.
But this is still my base, my topic. So if you aren't interested in discussing, you are welcome to drop out. You have me categorized and filed and aren't listening to anything anyway, so please feel free to leave. YOU CAN NOT SILENCE ME IN THE DISCUSSION I CREATED. Start your own and you can call me a racist homophobic degrader to your heart's content.
Even in this discussion, only LTJG (Join to see) has failed to attempt to shame me into your view by accusing me of being a racist, a homophobe, lying, or deliberately degrading people. Don't pretend to be concerned about anyone else's rights. You can't fool me.
But this is still my base, my topic. So if you aren't interested in discussing, you are welcome to drop out. You have me categorized and filed and aren't listening to anything anyway, so please feel free to leave. YOU CAN NOT SILENCE ME IN THE DISCUSSION I CREATED. Start your own and you can call me a racist homophobic degrader to your heart's content.
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LTJG (Join to see)
I'm not trying to silence you. If you didn't want an invigorating debate, then you shouldn't have started a post about transgender people and then dragged Muslims into it. I am a woman, plain and simple, and it is not selfish to demand respect for all women in the military, including transwomen, as well as transmen and anyone in the LGBT community.
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SGM (Join to see)
LTJG (Join to see) your opinion and that of the other two to the contrary, I fully support your right to live your life however you choose.
My comments regarding whether you will every really be a woman or not are biology, not psychology. You can believe that you are a woman, but you will still be a man who believes he is a woman. I don't see how any other logical conclusion is possible. It doesn't matter anyway - all I was getting at is that no psychologist will ever be able to completely assure you that your thoughts, your brain, your hardwiring, has changed to the extent that you are the same as one who was born a woman. I don't expect you to agree, and again, I wish you luck in your search.
My main point remains. At the point where your rights supersede everyone else's and the point where anyone who doesn't kowtow to your rights is a homophobic, racist degrader, then there is a problem, and it's your problem too. If you can't live with people who don't want to shower with you, that's not just because they don't accept your rights to live how you choose.
I started this thread because I truly hoped that someone would say this is the limit - this much and no more. Not that I expect the whole world to get behind it. Just because it would be good if two sides could meet somewhere in the middle where each side gets something and neither has to give up everything. I am sorry to see that there is no giving up on any point in your side. Of course, that's become the way things are, with social media polarizing everyone and politicians doing whatever they want while we are busy entertaining eachother by throwing wild accusations around instead of having a civilized discussion. CIVILIZED does not mean I have to agree with you. Civilized just means I don't accuse you of whatever I think will hurt the most, in an attempt to browbeat you to my side.
I hope that answers your question.
My comments regarding whether you will every really be a woman or not are biology, not psychology. You can believe that you are a woman, but you will still be a man who believes he is a woman. I don't see how any other logical conclusion is possible. It doesn't matter anyway - all I was getting at is that no psychologist will ever be able to completely assure you that your thoughts, your brain, your hardwiring, has changed to the extent that you are the same as one who was born a woman. I don't expect you to agree, and again, I wish you luck in your search.
My main point remains. At the point where your rights supersede everyone else's and the point where anyone who doesn't kowtow to your rights is a homophobic, racist degrader, then there is a problem, and it's your problem too. If you can't live with people who don't want to shower with you, that's not just because they don't accept your rights to live how you choose.
I started this thread because I truly hoped that someone would say this is the limit - this much and no more. Not that I expect the whole world to get behind it. Just because it would be good if two sides could meet somewhere in the middle where each side gets something and neither has to give up everything. I am sorry to see that there is no giving up on any point in your side. Of course, that's become the way things are, with social media polarizing everyone and politicians doing whatever they want while we are busy entertaining eachother by throwing wild accusations around instead of having a civilized discussion. CIVILIZED does not mean I have to agree with you. Civilized just means I don't accuse you of whatever I think will hurt the most, in an attempt to browbeat you to my side.
I hope that answers your question.
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LTJG (Join to see)
Well, I pass the duck test, also known as abductive reasoning. (If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.) Biologically, nobody is a man or a woman, they are just male or female or intersex. However, even biologically I am female, albeit a non-typical one. My thoughts, brain, and hardwiring have not changed to be female. They have always been that way. When I was developing in the womb, something went slightly wrong with the hormones my mother's body administered to me, and my brain continued to develop as female (as everyone's does when testosterone isn't added). Later, my gonads ended up developing into testes instead of ovaries, but my brain stayed female. Therefore, I am a female with testes, and by being an adult female human, that makes me a woman.
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The case that you are citing, SGM (Join to see), is extremely unique. Most transgender, from speaking with quite a few, only identify as the opposite sex, and not as a child. I am sure that the person in question had other issues than those associated with transgender persons.
I think that the Military will survive the transgender issue, just as it did the race issue, the women issue, and the gay issue. Everyone was saying, "Well, I won't serve with one of them" in those cases too, until the time came that they had no other choice. Then, after some time the idea becomes rooted in the collective Military consciousness, and the Army keeps rolling along. This too shall pass.
I think that the Military will survive the transgender issue, just as it did the race issue, the women issue, and the gay issue. Everyone was saying, "Well, I won't serve with one of them" in those cases too, until the time came that they had no other choice. Then, after some time the idea becomes rooted in the collective Military consciousness, and the Army keeps rolling along. This too shall pass.
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If one reads about all the necessary treatments required post-transgendering surgery, I can not see how that could happen with those in combat situations or even on ships with limited medical facilities.
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MCPO Katrina Hutcherson
MCPO Roger Collins I'm quite sure the only ongoing treatment they need after healing from surgery is hormone treatment easily administered in a combat environment. They could take leave and foot the bill for their surgery just as someone would have to do for cosmetic surgery.
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MCPO Roger Collins
Is there anything that has been published regarding cosmetic surgery that says this?
CONCLUSIONS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939/
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
CONCLUSIONS:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939/
Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.
Long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing sex reassignment surgery: cohort study in...
PLoS One. 2011 Feb 22;6(2):e16885. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0016885. Evaluation Studies; Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
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If this guy wants to spend the rest of his days pretending to be a little girl I could care less, just stop calling him a her, he will never be a female.
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I don't think this is just as simple as gender identification but more on the lines of a mental issue. Some may argue that it's the same idea (different gender=different life) but this just seems either botched up or someone is out to prove a point.
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I'll be first. I'm not trying to dump on anyone's parade. If someone chooses to change sexes, whether by cross dressing or surgery, I think that's completely their choice, as long as they don't expect me to pay for it.
But where is the line between believing you aren't who/what you were born as and complete fantasy? 52 year old man, father of 7 wants to be a woman, no problem. 52 year old man wants to be a 6 year old girl is an age shift as well. Shades of Star Trek time travel episodes!
I don't think the military is the right place for this kind of self-expression, self-identification, self-finding, or whatever. You cannot say in the middle of a firefight, "I don't see myself in combat! I'm dropping out."
At what point can I say, "I don't identify myself as _____ race. I'm now a bona-fide war chief of the Sioux nation?" At what point can I put on a loan application, "I identify myself as making $250,000 per year?" Perhaps I identify myself as a magna cum laude graduate of the Thomas Brooks Institution of Rocket Science.
OK, enough hyperbole. I really would like a serious answer from transgenders and their supporters. IS THERE A LIMIT to what you can identify as, and is there a limit to how much other people have to accommodate your identification?
But where is the line between believing you aren't who/what you were born as and complete fantasy? 52 year old man, father of 7 wants to be a woman, no problem. 52 year old man wants to be a 6 year old girl is an age shift as well. Shades of Star Trek time travel episodes!
I don't think the military is the right place for this kind of self-expression, self-identification, self-finding, or whatever. You cannot say in the middle of a firefight, "I don't see myself in combat! I'm dropping out."
At what point can I say, "I don't identify myself as _____ race. I'm now a bona-fide war chief of the Sioux nation?" At what point can I put on a loan application, "I identify myself as making $250,000 per year?" Perhaps I identify myself as a magna cum laude graduate of the Thomas Brooks Institution of Rocket Science.
OK, enough hyperbole. I really would like a serious answer from transgenders and their supporters. IS THERE A LIMIT to what you can identify as, and is there a limit to how much other people have to accommodate your identification?
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MCPO Katrina Hutcherson
Those analogies are ridiculous an have no bearing on gender dysphoria. You keep mentioning the combat aspect. There are heterosexual males who cannot deal with combat that freeze under fire, turn and run and go AWOL. Trying to make the connection with allowing people to be openly trangendered and then deciding they want to opt out of combat is also ridiculous!
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SGM (Join to see)
MCPO Katrina Hutcherson You are overwrought. I said those were hyperbole. I ask asked the question, which you ducked. Is there a limit?
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