Posted on Feb 15, 2023
I got a DUI while on leave. What can I expect?
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My PSG told me today that I can finish my leave bit I need to be prepared to face the music when I get back. My leave ends after the 4 day this weekend.
What can I expect? I'm in an INSCOM unit and my job is in high demand. I know I messed up big time and am prepared to accept the punishment but will it end my career?
What can I expect? I'm in an INSCOM unit and my job is in high demand. I know I messed up big time and am prepared to accept the punishment but will it end my career?
Posted 2 y ago
Responses: 54
I would recommend looking at the various "questions" posts regarding DUIs in the past. One specific one sticks out* as the advice given by SGM Erik Marquez seems most appropriate to your situation.
Bottom line - Will it end your career? Possibly. If you're a relatively new NCO, leadership might not hold you to as high of a standard as a senior NCO, but frankly, it comes down to the judgement of your leadership and how they view a DUI.
For some getting a DUI is a careless act and an 'otherwise good Soldier' can overcome it.
For others it shows a gross lack of judgement and you were lucky you didn't kill a pregnant mother and the van full of nuns she was driving to bingo.
Personally I was extremely hard on the DUIs that came in front of me, but I will admit that having lost a brother to a drunk driver colored my view (just relating to drive the point home that your commander's view will be shaped by their personal experience).
Additionally, you will have to 'face the music', possibly twice. You will have to face the DUI on the civilian side and then you'll have to face the ramifications on the military side. Many times the military will leave the criminal determination up to the civilian side and give you NJP, but understand that you CAN face legal action (i.e., court martial) on the military's side in addition to the civilian side - there is no double jeopardy. Will you? Again, completely up to the leadership and the servicing JAG.
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* DUI Post - https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/will-one-dui-end-my-career
Bottom line - Will it end your career? Possibly. If you're a relatively new NCO, leadership might not hold you to as high of a standard as a senior NCO, but frankly, it comes down to the judgement of your leadership and how they view a DUI.
For some getting a DUI is a careless act and an 'otherwise good Soldier' can overcome it.
For others it shows a gross lack of judgement and you were lucky you didn't kill a pregnant mother and the van full of nuns she was driving to bingo.
Personally I was extremely hard on the DUIs that came in front of me, but I will admit that having lost a brother to a drunk driver colored my view (just relating to drive the point home that your commander's view will be shaped by their personal experience).
Additionally, you will have to 'face the music', possibly twice. You will have to face the DUI on the civilian side and then you'll have to face the ramifications on the military side. Many times the military will leave the criminal determination up to the civilian side and give you NJP, but understand that you CAN face legal action (i.e., court martial) on the military's side in addition to the civilian side - there is no double jeopardy. Will you? Again, completely up to the leadership and the servicing JAG.
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* DUI Post - https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/will-one-dui-end-my-career
Will one DUI end my career? | RallyPoint
I got a dui off post. My co found out. He counseled me and said im getting a gomar and article 15. My buddy I might get chaptered by hec for qsp. Is this true?
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Lt Col Bill Fletcher
I suggest you find, hire and pay the best DUI Defense Lawyer in the Jurisdiction.
That attorney may be able to reduce the charges against you either in Court or by negotiation. That is it to sanction DUIs. It is a chance to save your career. Then never drink and drive again. You will ultimately have to report your conviction prior to any reenlistment.
That attorney may be able to reduce the charges against you either in Court or by negotiation. That is it to sanction DUIs. It is a chance to save your career. Then never drink and drive again. You will ultimately have to report your conviction prior to any reenlistment.
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LTC Reginald Brown
Here is one example of DUI not being a career ender: Captain left Army with DUI in 1993, served in National Guard, returned to Active Duty in 2004 as a Major, then promoted to LTC and COL, still serving as of 2023 May.
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You received sone great guidance. I will add that you should take the hi demand job off the table when it comes to a command determining a course of action. What I also did not see is the security clearance as a possible issue. There are sone deeper holes that this can go down, but the clearance/access could become an issue.
Return, apologize, be contrite and through yourself at the mercy of. You will need to Soldier up like you haven’t in the past. If reduced you may be moved to another Company or Battalion. Either way you will need to suck up the looks and comments and go about your duties in a way that sets you apart.
Return, apologize, be contrite and through yourself at the mercy of. You will need to Soldier up like you haven’t in the past. If reduced you may be moved to another Company or Battalion. Either way you will need to suck up the looks and comments and go about your duties in a way that sets you apart.
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SGT Bryan Lloyd
Well said , very glad no one is coming down hard on this soldier. I really didn’t expect anything different. This just tells me that we are all brothers and sisters and are willing to help in what ever way they can
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SPC (Join to see)
Clearance definitely Can become an issue. The command has the I igual say on whether you should be still granted access and be able to do your job duties. The DOD CAS has the final say in whther you keep your clearance or not in the long run.
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SGT (Join to see)
That's a good point. He'll probably have to submit a rebuttal to retain the security clearance. Hopefully his command can do a temporary security clearance while S2 processes the paperwork. Also, his commander should do a character statement endorsed by his supervisor(s)
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Well, you're lucky they aren't recalling you back from Leave. So, in a way that's a good sign. Now for the bad signs. You will be facing UCMJ, more than likely. How severe will be up to your Commander. Possible outcome is loss of rank and pay. Will it end your career? That is always a possibility. That being said, being a SGT getting a DUI is more survivable than being a SSG getting a DUI...which is not survivable.
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SGM (Join to see)
And you can expect your clearance/access to be suspended.
That is a big deal for your job and a big inconvenience for your boss.
That is a big deal for your job and a big inconvenience for your boss.
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MSG (Join to see)
SGM (Join to see) - Ouch. Didn't look at his listed MOS. Yea.....that's gonna bite hard
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SGT(P) Jody Hall
We had a saying back in my 37th Engineer days. In aviation there was 0.0 meter exception to the rule of you are burnt dishonorable discharge, that then Lt Ojeda now retired LTC used to say...
Sapper you done shit the bed. This one is going to teach you a lesson (Combat arms side engineers). You just quietly get put out as a NCO.
Sapper you done shit the bed. This one is going to teach you a lesson (Combat arms side engineers). You just quietly get put out as a NCO.
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COL Randall C. gave great advice and included link to similar question on RP. My response there may be helpful. Here's the short version.
You have to deal with the DUI on several levels: civilian legal system, military legal and administrative system, personal. Prepare for all.
-Civilian legal. Get a lawyer that specializes in DUI; use your 5th Amendment Right to shut up!
-Military. Keep your chain of command informed of any civilian court dates, fines, sentences. Be prepared to undergo NJP or court martial. Seek advice of military defense counsel. Go to Behavorial health counseling. Depending on your commander's intent, you should start planning what you will do when forced out of the Service.
Personal: seek treatment for whatever underlying problems may have gotten you into a situation where very poor judgement allowed you to use a drug (alcohol) and operate a motor vehicle. If you are sent to Behavorial Health for counseling, say thank you and go to every appointment or group session. Be polite and contrite when communicating with your chain of command and medical personnel.
You have to deal with the DUI on several levels: civilian legal system, military legal and administrative system, personal. Prepare for all.
-Civilian legal. Get a lawyer that specializes in DUI; use your 5th Amendment Right to shut up!
-Military. Keep your chain of command informed of any civilian court dates, fines, sentences. Be prepared to undergo NJP or court martial. Seek advice of military defense counsel. Go to Behavorial health counseling. Depending on your commander's intent, you should start planning what you will do when forced out of the Service.
Personal: seek treatment for whatever underlying problems may have gotten you into a situation where very poor judgement allowed you to use a drug (alcohol) and operate a motor vehicle. If you are sent to Behavorial Health for counseling, say thank you and go to every appointment or group session. Be polite and contrite when communicating with your chain of command and medical personnel.
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CW3 (Join to see)
"-Civilian legal. Get a lawyer that specializes in DUI; use your 5th Amendment Right to shut up!"
If there is one piece of advice you follow, it should be this.
If there is one piece of advice you follow, it should be this.
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I would expect to lose your clearance. With your clearance gone, your job will be too. If you are not separated, you'll be mandatorily reclassed, probably 92Y or 88M, neither requires a clearance. If you are separated, you won't be able to get hired on as a SIGINT without a clearance
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Charges in the civilian court are the easiest to attack, by the time the military gets hold of your ass, you are already guilty or innocent, or perhaps guilty of a lesser offense if you are lucky.
When it goes to civilian court, be sure your attorney (if you don't use one, you are a fool) points out the additional career damage, fines, etc you will face from the military. Work out how much you will lose if you lose a stripe, over the course of your career, and including if you retire with one less stripe and manage to live until your 80's, how much the conviction will cost you total over the course of your life. The answer may amaze you.
Include the special job you do insofar as you can, and the fact you will lose your clearance. If you can, come up with the cost to the USG to train your replacement. If you have ever been in a position to be shot at or got any "no shit" medals, make sure that comes up.
If possible, send your attorney to talk to the DA's office prior to going to trial. They decide if and what level you get charged, not the cops. Sometimes they might take an instant, no problems win over the possibility of a long, hard fought (because so much is at stake) case where they are prosecuting a military member. In a JURY trial.
They might not care and might take the attitude "you knew that before you did it", but they might take it into account. What I mean is, see if you can get a plea bargain to reckless driving (unlikely) or some lesser offense.
Also, if it has to go to trial, demand a JURY trial, and have your attorney ask "Do you think it is fair for military members to pay a higher price than civilians for the same offense?" during the jury selection process. You have to put that thought in their mind at every chance. Say "sir" and "Ma'am" at every opportunity, also, to everyone, even if you hate them. Wear your uniform if you can.
Show up to court. Sometimes, cops don't, and if they don't, your attorney can ask for a dismissal just because you are there, and the witnesses against you are not. This works. Many times people representing themselves let this golden opportunity slide.
Source: 6 years post retirement from the USAF as a Deputy Sheriff. Led my department in DUI arrests the last year I worked. This is because I worked the night shift right across the river from Huntsville, AL, a notorious den of sin and iniquity, not because I was trying. My average DUI driver was ditch to ditch on a 4 lane road, not just a little over, because they would be ATM machines for strippers for hours and go home frustrated and drunk.
I also took several military personnel (and 1 RN) home rather than charging them because I knew the additional cost to them, and did not think it fair. The RN worked in a major ER and faced losing her nursing license, the military, you know.
I still don't think it's fair, particularly as probably most of those sitting in judgement have done precisely the same thing on multiple occasions and were just lucky.
Since i have lived in a glass house before, I choose not to throw stones. I used to throw charges, but I liked that job so much I quit.
When it goes to civilian court, be sure your attorney (if you don't use one, you are a fool) points out the additional career damage, fines, etc you will face from the military. Work out how much you will lose if you lose a stripe, over the course of your career, and including if you retire with one less stripe and manage to live until your 80's, how much the conviction will cost you total over the course of your life. The answer may amaze you.
Include the special job you do insofar as you can, and the fact you will lose your clearance. If you can, come up with the cost to the USG to train your replacement. If you have ever been in a position to be shot at or got any "no shit" medals, make sure that comes up.
If possible, send your attorney to talk to the DA's office prior to going to trial. They decide if and what level you get charged, not the cops. Sometimes they might take an instant, no problems win over the possibility of a long, hard fought (because so much is at stake) case where they are prosecuting a military member. In a JURY trial.
They might not care and might take the attitude "you knew that before you did it", but they might take it into account. What I mean is, see if you can get a plea bargain to reckless driving (unlikely) or some lesser offense.
Also, if it has to go to trial, demand a JURY trial, and have your attorney ask "Do you think it is fair for military members to pay a higher price than civilians for the same offense?" during the jury selection process. You have to put that thought in their mind at every chance. Say "sir" and "Ma'am" at every opportunity, also, to everyone, even if you hate them. Wear your uniform if you can.
Show up to court. Sometimes, cops don't, and if they don't, your attorney can ask for a dismissal just because you are there, and the witnesses against you are not. This works. Many times people representing themselves let this golden opportunity slide.
Source: 6 years post retirement from the USAF as a Deputy Sheriff. Led my department in DUI arrests the last year I worked. This is because I worked the night shift right across the river from Huntsville, AL, a notorious den of sin and iniquity, not because I was trying. My average DUI driver was ditch to ditch on a 4 lane road, not just a little over, because they would be ATM machines for strippers for hours and go home frustrated and drunk.
I also took several military personnel (and 1 RN) home rather than charging them because I knew the additional cost to them, and did not think it fair. The RN worked in a major ER and faced losing her nursing license, the military, you know.
I still don't think it's fair, particularly as probably most of those sitting in judgement have done precisely the same thing on multiple occasions and were just lucky.
Since i have lived in a glass house before, I choose not to throw stones. I used to throw charges, but I liked that job so much I quit.
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Did you go to court yet? If not, you should not be subject to administrative action for a DUI until you have been convicted by the local authorities. You never know, the court system might jack it up and you end up exonerated. Don't accept any type of punishment for an offense still not adjudicated without consulting with Legal.
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Lots of good advice from various points of view. The person who commented that it really depends on your chain of command, and their personal experiences, is definitely a good insight. I've seen Commanding Officers differ from each other, when it comes to discipline.
I personally had a Sailor that showed up drunk to a Navy Day Ball, tried to fight our Command Master Chief and another Master Chief, as they tried to get him to calm down, and then the Sailor bit a police officer when they were attempting to take him in after the CMC got tired of the crap and told someone to call the police.
That Sailor was recommended for reduction in rank, restriction, loss of pay, by me, our Department Chief, the DIVO, Department Head, and XO, which would have put him at HYT and discharged. For some reason, beyond my comprehension, the CO did nothing to the Sailor, because he didn't want to send him packing bags.
How does our chain of command view you? They will be the ones that determine whether or not you stay or go home. I was a Cryptologist for 24 years, so there is a really good chance your Security Clearance will be suspended, if not revoked for a period of time. It doesn't really matter how "in demand" your MOS is, you displayed poor judgement.
I personally had a Sailor that showed up drunk to a Navy Day Ball, tried to fight our Command Master Chief and another Master Chief, as they tried to get him to calm down, and then the Sailor bit a police officer when they were attempting to take him in after the CMC got tired of the crap and told someone to call the police.
That Sailor was recommended for reduction in rank, restriction, loss of pay, by me, our Department Chief, the DIVO, Department Head, and XO, which would have put him at HYT and discharged. For some reason, beyond my comprehension, the CO did nothing to the Sailor, because he didn't want to send him packing bags.
How does our chain of command view you? They will be the ones that determine whether or not you stay or go home. I was a Cryptologist for 24 years, so there is a really good chance your Security Clearance will be suspended, if not revoked for a period of time. It doesn't really matter how "in demand" your MOS is, you displayed poor judgement.
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SPC Robert Coventry
I think fighting and resisting arrest is much worse then a DUI, I would sign up for a alcohol program and show command you are taking full responsibility and it will never happen again, Do not try and use excuses.
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I have noticed a damn the trial let us lynch him/her right now. Why the rush to punish before the DUI is proven beyond a reasonable doubt in court?
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COL Randall C.
You might have missed the comment in the original question of, "What can I expect? I'm in an INSCOM unit and my job is in high demand. I know I messed up big time and am prepared to accept the punishment but will it end my career?"
There's no rush to judgement - everything has been a response to his "what can I expect" question.
There's no rush to judgement - everything has been a response to his "what can I expect" question.
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As a company commander, i took DUI's seriously after i had to conduct memorial services for two troopers who took their heads off hitting a tractor trailor after leaving a bar. You have demonstrated poor judgement electing to drive while drunk. Others were placed in danger whether riding with you or innocent by standers. Subsequently, that reflects on your ability to live a disciplined example to your fellow soldiers, decisions, actions.
I had a cook who was in advanced convulsive stage of drinking. I processed him out of service, to old soldiers home. He was a detriment to service. When i had to address drinking problems it usually recommending article 15, reduction in rank and addutional dutiies as assigned by 1sr sergeant.
I had a cook who was in advanced convulsive stage of drinking. I processed him out of service, to old soldiers home. He was a detriment to service. When i had to address drinking problems it usually recommending article 15, reduction in rank and addutional dutiies as assigned by 1sr sergeant.
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