Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Military bearing
Discipline
Supervisor
Leadership
What Would You Do
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 3691
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It must be nipped in the bud quickly and without hesitation. Having had a few minutes to think about it, here goes....
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.
Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."
To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.
Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."
To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
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MAJ Fred Zacher
I'm a Veterans Service Officer. I see one ex-military every month who has bad papers but wish they could get VA benefits. The VA reserves the right to determine the nature of a less than honorable discharge. Most times they rule as if it were dishonorable. Especially for someone like AB Dipshit. He'll regret his stupidity for the rest of his life. An honorable discharge has given me many great benefits since I left the military 52 years ago.
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Sgt Michael Betts
I recall reading a whining complaint from an Army SFC (E-7) harping because the wounded troops at Walter Reed AMC would not clean their rooms, retorting that they would call their Congress critters if forced or disciplined for failure to obey a lawful order. My response was that if that had happened with a Marine Gunnery Sergeant (E-7), it would be a good thing that PFC Dipshit was already at a hospital since they might be able to get him to the ER in time to save his life. My opinion hasn't changed.
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SGT Jim Giffin
Sgt Neil Foster - You saved a lot of lives by keeping this guy from graduating and being a hazard in the civilian world of avionics.
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PO3 David Keck
After hearing of some of the recent cases in the US military, I have to admit I am more concerned with senior enlisted and some officers that feel like OPSEC and unit discipline are someone else's problem. The new administration has a big problem and replacement at the top is the only solution.
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Praise in public, punish in private. "You stand fast after formation." Give him a chance to explain insubordination. Mandatory counseling. If he is defiant in private after getting the chance then burn him. ART15. Sometimes people are defiant because something happened and they feel out of control so they try to take it wherever they can no matter how inappropriate. Sometimes a wife cheated or a parent died. Sometimes the hospital calls and congratulates you on having cancer. To outright burn a Joe without gathering the facts is irresponsible and we would want someone breathing down our neck to take that extra moment to consider what might be going on too. If it's nothing more than attitude and a shitty personality then by all means light that dead Christmas tree and know you probably saved lives downrange.
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MAJ Tom Harper
I agree. Have the private, squad leader and platoon sergeant stand fast after formation. Find out what is going on before making a harsh decision. The private may need an article 15 or he/she may need emergency leave. As a former unit commander I made some decisions about personnel that I later regretted before having all the facts
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LTC Stuart Knade
MAJ Tom Harper - Good wisdom Tom. There is almost aways some information you will later wish you had known before reacting. There is always another side to the story, 99% of which may be BS, but 1% you might have wanted to take into account before deciding how to deal with the situation.
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1LT Peter Suedfeld
Sergeant Foster said that "Dipshit" was always in trouble. So this incident of insubordination was not a one-off because the guy's girl friend dumped him or he had indigestion. Getting him out of the service was the right move.
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I can speak from experience on this one. On my first boat( yes I'm a submariner) as an E3 I was made Deck Div LPO, AKA Leading Seaman. While passing out the day's job assignments, I was told "f@#k no" by one of the new seaman. I was shocked to say the least. I went to the 1st LT, a TMCS, and informed him of my situation. He told me in no uncertain terms to take said individual to the back of the work barge and show him the error of his ways. I did so, physically. The young man never questioned me again.
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
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LTC Stuart Knade
As a new 2LT infantry rifle platoon leader (Army) 43 years ago I had tons to learn from my plt sgt, a 2-tour Vietnam vet as a Marine. When this kind of thing happened he would tell me that he had it under control and not to ask questions. "Don't ask me sir". I never saw repeats of that kind of behavior.
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LTC Stuart Knade
I should add that the biggest lesson was that officers should let the NCOs take care of "Sergeant's business".
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PO2 Stephen Brownell
When and E2 stated that he wouldn't do it we would have a little talk in the boatswin locker or in the boiler room then he would not talk or open his mouth when he was not asked
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PO3 Gregory Hott
I was a PO3 on a carrier early 1970's. At sea (PACIFIC) and I was last man on ship to be accounted for in a man overboard drill! Honest mistake but still very serious, had to see the ships XO! Boy was I scared! Almost at the end of a four year tour. I was always professional, did my job, but my uniform and military appearance was always marginal, it was my way of rebelling! That XO overlooked my appearance and treated me with complete respect (almost like a son)! I realize that I was not a model sailor but I did my job and I could always be counted on to do my best no matter what the job was. And in return I was always treated with respect in return!
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