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Something has to done and done soon. You can be assured the attack on the Marine and NAVY recruiters will happen again. I have no proof to back up my statement, but common sense should make you realize it will happen again. Our recruiters can't be left to be sitting ducks. They need to be armed. At least they have a chance at defending theirselves. Now for the story from American Thinker.
The terrorist organization known as ISIS has made it clear that a part of its jihadist war plan against America is carrying out so-called "lone wolf" attacks aimed primarily against members of our military and possibly their families. The attacks in Chattanooga by an apparent Islamic lone wolf are the latest result of that terror tactic. We can only guess as to what the future holds for American warriors and their families. We should not wait to find out.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/07/how_to_formally_arm_our_troops.html#ixzz3gIj9jTZo
The terrorist organization known as ISIS has made it clear that a part of its jihadist war plan against America is carrying out so-called "lone wolf" attacks aimed primarily against members of our military and possibly their families. The attacks in Chattanooga by an apparent Islamic lone wolf are the latest result of that terror tactic. We can only guess as to what the future holds for American warriors and their families. We should not wait to find out.
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/07/how_to_formally_arm_our_troops.html#ixzz3gIj9jTZo
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 43
Suspended Profile
I was just talking to my wife about this yesterday. imho, every active duty service member should be armed, with certain exceptions. Being armed in engineering spaces on Navy/CG ships, for instance would be an unfortunate encumbrance that inhibits duty performance. But every ground trooper, every airman, ever person on a shore installation, should be armed. Why do our troops have M5's or whatever the latest is, down range, but as soon as they get on the airplane - turn it in... Why aren't all officers and Senior Enlisted carrying loaded side arms?
The arguments of the past about people not knowing how to handle them, so there are accidents is bunk. Train like you fight!!! If our folks have to be armed with Mwhatevers and Sidearms down range, how can we justify them not being armed at home?
There are discussions in some states about concealed carry for some recruiters... Forget that. Concealed pistols just take time to get to and are not a visible deterrent. Fully strapped...
The arguments of the past about people not knowing how to handle them, so there are accidents is bunk. Train like you fight!!! If our folks have to be armed with Mwhatevers and Sidearms down range, how can we justify them not being armed at home?
There are discussions in some states about concealed carry for some recruiters... Forget that. Concealed pistols just take time to get to and are not a visible deterrent. Fully strapped...
I was a 1st Sgt for a recruiting squadron. I estimate more than half my recruiters were on anti-depressants such as Paxil. Are you sure you want them carrying heat?
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
Barnes, Medications like Paxil are prescribed to normalize people. The same with chronic pain patients receiving pain killers on a normal schedule. None are getting high because not enough is prescribed. States have not seen fit to refuse permits to prescribed analgesic recipients. Most are still working and running their businesses. And they're not junkies either.
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SMSgt Tony Barnes
Cuminale Mental health providers wish your first statement was true. The fact of hte matter is that the 'norm' they get to with the meds...is usually a new norm they are willing to acccept. For some the meds barely help.
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we can't arm recruiting stations, they're not "military" property, recruiters would be subject to local and state firm arms laws.
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1LT William Clardy
LCpl Mark Lefler, from a purely legal perspective, military regulations, as a lawful extension of Congressional authority to regulate the Army and Navy, trump local laws and are not limited in jurisdiction to any particular type of property.
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LCpl Mark Lefler
1LT William Clardy - have to see if that would apply to recruiting centers which are in private buildings in the USA and not on gov property, em posse laws might matter.
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1LT William Clardy
LCpl Mark Lefler, I would bet dimes to donuts that the courts would consider all recruiting centers to be within federal jurisdiction, especially on the subject of who is authorized to can carry weapons there.
For example, 18 U.S. Code §930, which is the general ban on possessing deadly weaponry in a federal facility, has this (surprisingly sensible) definition:
(g)(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
For example, 18 U.S. Code §930, which is the general ban on possessing deadly weaponry in a federal facility, has this (surprisingly sensible) definition:
(g)(1) The term “Federal facility” means a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties.
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Alright, if we're going to do this, let's look at it logically.
First and foremost, we need to provide training. Pistol qualification at the basic level would be a 2 week event which would have to be added to the Basic/Bootcamp level (or MCT/MOS/AIT, etc). That's the only way to ensure "everyone" is trained.
Second we need to provide Annual Refresher training, much like we do for Rifle Qualification.
Third, we need to provide State/Local Training, as every state is a little different, and the rules regarding such are different. This would likely be a 1-2 day class upon arrival to the base, and a annual/semi-annual refresher (tied in with Annual Pistol Qualification).
Fourth, there is the matter of Age restrictions. In order to purchase a handgun, you must be over the age of 21. I do not know what individual States have enacted for possession, but let's assume there will be some deconfliction which must take place.
Fifth is storage. How do we store these weapons, and ammo. In bootcamp, we had "armory racks" but no ammo. We could likely provide lockboxes in the barracks, and issue them as well to troops who live offbase, however there are cost issues which would have to be accounted for. Even at $50 each (SWAG $ figure) that adds up fast for 1M troops.
Policies regarding alcohol consumption. Can a weapon be stored in a vehicle? Can a weapon be handed off to a spouse? These are all things that need to be accounted for.
First and foremost, we need to provide training. Pistol qualification at the basic level would be a 2 week event which would have to be added to the Basic/Bootcamp level (or MCT/MOS/AIT, etc). That's the only way to ensure "everyone" is trained.
Second we need to provide Annual Refresher training, much like we do for Rifle Qualification.
Third, we need to provide State/Local Training, as every state is a little different, and the rules regarding such are different. This would likely be a 1-2 day class upon arrival to the base, and a annual/semi-annual refresher (tied in with Annual Pistol Qualification).
Fourth, there is the matter of Age restrictions. In order to purchase a handgun, you must be over the age of 21. I do not know what individual States have enacted for possession, but let's assume there will be some deconfliction which must take place.
Fifth is storage. How do we store these weapons, and ammo. In bootcamp, we had "armory racks" but no ammo. We could likely provide lockboxes in the barracks, and issue them as well to troops who live offbase, however there are cost issues which would have to be accounted for. Even at $50 each (SWAG $ figure) that adds up fast for 1M troops.
Policies regarding alcohol consumption. Can a weapon be stored in a vehicle? Can a weapon be handed off to a spouse? These are all things that need to be accounted for.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
1LT William Clardy I approach this from the opposite side, saying you are in danger of "over-simplifying" it. When we take a "Reasonable man" approach, I am reminded of the scene from Men In Black where K explains to J (then still James):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqR6CBFyelw
"The Person is smart. People are dump, panicky, dangerous animals, animals, and you know it..."
And I'm FULLY in favor of letting our people be armed. I absolutely think it can be done. I think it can be done "relatively" quickly, but this is not an overnight issue. This is a 3-6 month affair minimum. Probably closer to 1-2 year to get something really good and sustainable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqR6CBFyelw
"The Person is smart. People are dump, panicky, dangerous animals, animals, and you know it..."
And I'm FULLY in favor of letting our people be armed. I absolutely think it can be done. I think it can be done "relatively" quickly, but this is not an overnight issue. This is a 3-6 month affair minimum. Probably closer to 1-2 year to get something really good and sustainable.
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1LT William Clardy
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS, when I read what I believe is the current directive on arming DoD personnel outside of hostile-fire ones ( DoD Directive 5210.56, "Use of Force by Personnel Engaged in Law Enforcement and Duties", http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a272176.pdf ), the necessary legal framework seems to be there already, contingent upon whom is or shall be designated to issue an authorization:
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"DoD military and civilian personnel regularly assigned to law enforcement or security duties may be given a continuing authorization to carry firearms provided they pass the required yearly qualification standards. Personnel assigned firearms for personal protection under the provisions of section C above shall be authorized to carry firearms on a case-by-case basis only for the duration of specific assignments or threats.
"Procedures shall be established to ensure that any individual being issued a firearm has written authorization in effect before the actual issuance of the weapon."
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There definitely doesn't seem to be any need for "emergency", healine-grabbing, ill-thought-out legislation.
All of which really just means that the long pole in the tent remains actually developing a sensible mechanism for doing so, which we both agree *does* take time and thought and effort to get it right.
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"DoD military and civilian personnel regularly assigned to law enforcement or security duties may be given a continuing authorization to carry firearms provided they pass the required yearly qualification standards. Personnel assigned firearms for personal protection under the provisions of section C above shall be authorized to carry firearms on a case-by-case basis only for the duration of specific assignments or threats.
"Procedures shall be established to ensure that any individual being issued a firearm has written authorization in effect before the actual issuance of the weapon."
===========================
There definitely doesn't seem to be any need for "emergency", healine-grabbing, ill-thought-out legislation.
All of which really just means that the long pole in the tent remains actually developing a sensible mechanism for doing so, which we both agree *does* take time and thought and effort to get it right.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
1LT William Clardy Which goes back to my Train & De-conflict (as needed). I really don't think we disagree on this. It sounds like there might be a little tweaking so that people(States) don't get their undies in a bunch, and then the logistical aspects, but my main concern is one of our guys getting pulled over by a cop and getting charged with an "unregistered weapon" or some other stupid charge, and then spending a weekend in jail, or worse yet... being a news story and dash cam footage.
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MAJ Matthew Arnold
If Peace Officers can be armed and trained and trusted to carry all the time, then certainly service members can be too. It would be a similar model, no need to re-invent the wheel.
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See how upside down we have become? We are having to have a discussion (as a country) about arming the "armed" forces of the United States to protect themselves on U.S. soil. This is further evidence of how far we have drifted.
Recruiters are usually NCO's or Staff NCO's. They should be responsible enough to carry a side arm or I might question why, in a time of large draw downs, they are still in the armed forces. If we have NCO's/Staff NCO's that are not comfortable with firearms I would really question them being on the wall. I could see an exception for healthcare related positions where there might be a conflict perhaps a few others.
Recruiters are usually NCO's or Staff NCO's. They should be responsible enough to carry a side arm or I might question why, in a time of large draw downs, they are still in the armed forces. If we have NCO's/Staff NCO's that are not comfortable with firearms I would really question them being on the wall. I could see an exception for healthcare related positions where there might be a conflict perhaps a few others.
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Cpl Jeff N.
Sgt Ken Prescott. If they have been in the military long enough to be an NCO or Staff NCO (4-8 years) and they still are not proficient with a side arm or their primary weapon I would wonder what they have been doing.
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SSG (Join to see)
Cpl Jeff N. "This is further evidence of how far we have drifted."
When is the last time U.S. solders in a garrison environment (not training or on guard duty) outside of any designated combat theater, were armed and ready for conflict?
I believe having one armed NCO or officer at a recruiting station (carrying concealed) is probably a good idea. Having armed guards protecting military installations is also a good idea. Arming most or all soldiers in a garrison environment would result in far more deaths than are caused by the random extremist.
When is the last time U.S. solders in a garrison environment (not training or on guard duty) outside of any designated combat theater, were armed and ready for conflict?
I believe having one armed NCO or officer at a recruiting station (carrying concealed) is probably a good idea. Having armed guards protecting military installations is also a good idea. Arming most or all soldiers in a garrison environment would result in far more deaths than are caused by the random extremist.
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Cpl Jeff N.
SSG (Join to see) . I suspect there are many folks in garrison , at larger installations, that are armed and ready. Certainly the military police are. Sentries on armed guard duty are etc. They don't have to be ready for armed conflict they need only be able to engage a shooter or shooters to protect others that are unarmed.
I did not suggest we arm everyone. I suggested NCO's and Staff NCO's and you don't even need to arm every one of them. Some number in units should be armed and ready to repel boarders. People on islands, such as recruiters should be able to protect themselves and other in their offices. They can use conceal carry in their state or the feds should clear them hot to carry in less friendly states just as law enforcement officers do.
I have read that we have anywhere from 700,000 - 1,000,000 law enforcement officers in the US today. These folks almost all carry a weapon and manage not to shoot each other regularly.
I did not suggest we arm everyone. I suggested NCO's and Staff NCO's and you don't even need to arm every one of them. Some number in units should be armed and ready to repel boarders. People on islands, such as recruiters should be able to protect themselves and other in their offices. They can use conceal carry in their state or the feds should clear them hot to carry in less friendly states just as law enforcement officers do.
I have read that we have anywhere from 700,000 - 1,000,000 law enforcement officers in the US today. These folks almost all carry a weapon and manage not to shoot each other regularly.
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MAJ Matthew Arnold
When I first came into the army, the company commanders, 1SGs, and duty officer/NCO were often armed. The motor pool guards and other guards were also armed. Then a couple years went by and they told the guards to keep the magazine out of the weapon. Then a couple years went by and they started putting duct tape over the magazines so you would have to cut off the tape to be able to put it in the weapon and fire bullets. Then a couple years went by and they had weapons without bullets. Finally, just having the weapon was too much trouble, so they gave the guards baseball bats. I don't remember all the details, you know, officers don't get dirty, so ask an old 1SG or SFC. But it was a progressive reaction to accidental discharges, woundings, and deaths. No command would accept the risk of any of those things. And, it all worked until we had local armed bad guys.
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Cpl Tim Lang
Cpl Dennis Fresch - There wouldn't be culture shock from ordinary Americans but we certainly have an element of the population that "makes it a point to be offended" when it doesn't agree with them politically. In Texas, North Carolina, South Carolina and many other states, the people wouldn't blink. But in California, New York, CT, etc their would definitely be a stink. Those are the ones you have to deal with. Now, let me be clear that I believe every law abiding US citizen has a right to carry but the military will have to deal with public relations as well. Notice I said that arming senior enlisted and officers was a start to more comprehensively protecting our military.
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PO3 Jody Wangen
no problem in Mississippi or Alabama either. they have gun racks in their trucks if they hunt. Meridian MS was overrun this weekend by 4H state finals. waiting for results
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SGT (Join to see)
Cpl Dennis F., After what happened at those recruiting posts, I don't think they would care.
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1LT William Clardy
SSG Ryan R., could we at least get rubber guns, if we promised to not load the rubber bullets unless there were no enlisted in a position to return fire?
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We put weapons in the hands of anybody in any kind of uniform in foreign nations, but sadly can't arm our own brothers and sisters. Another example of political correctness killing our nation. Praying for the Marines' family and loved ones right now...
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SGT (Join to see)
MAJ Bill Maynard, Yes Sir. Totally agree and don't understand that. I've not heard any conversation out of our government about changes with weapon rules. Are we here on RP, the only ones discussing this bad situation?
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Arming the recruiters is solving only part of the problem. It's a necessary step, but it's only one step.
Armed recruiters would not have made much of a difference at Chattanooga, because the shooter engaged from standoff range outside the recruiting office, and very few of the victims would've had the ability to engage effectively.
Another problem: there are a LOT of NCOs and officers whom I would not trust with small arms in a tactical situation, because they haven't learned the skills needed to survive said situation--or even the skills required to safely bear arms. Combat troops have this drilled into them--but combat arms personnel make up only about 10% of the Marines and Army, and far less of the Navy and Air Force.
This problem will kill any arm-the-troops initiative because no commander in his right mind is going to risk the consequences of a (likely to happen) negligent discharge.
So, what needs to be done?
I believe we need a force protection training program to equip non-combat-arms personnel with the skills needed to safely handle firearms on a routine basis, the tactical skill to respond to an attack, the ability to act as an instructor and leader in local force protection initiatives, and risk assessment and mitigation skills to aid the commander in establishing and maintaining force protection measures.
This program would be joint (as this is a joint problem, and many of the most vulnerable facilities are joint ones; also, I want one standard for critical things like interfacing with local law enforcement). To be eligible to apply for the program, one must be an NCO or warrant/ commissioned officer (Army SP4s and USAF SrAs need not apply; in the E-4 ranks, only Army hard-stripe Corporals and USAF SSGs are eligible unless those branches change their manpower policies), with at least four years' time in service.
The evaluation process begins with the chain of command; consideration for the assessment phase will only be given to those who have favorable endorsement from their chain of command to the O-6 CO/OIC level. COs and OICs are expected to interview the candidate and the candidate's immediate seniors in the chain of command prior to granting favorable endorsement to the application.
The candidate will then participate in the assessment phase. This will consist of a physical fitness test and relevant portions of the USMC Combat Fitness Test (notably, the buddy drag/carry and movement under fire sections). All of this will be given at the end of a full day's work--the enemy isn't going to attack you when you're fresh and ready to go, after all! The assessment phase concludes with an interview by the selection board; this will be aimed at assessing the candidate's maturity and ability to instruct and advise.
Successful candidates will then undergo an eight-week program focused on the following areas:
1. Threat analysis, with risk analysis and mitigation strategies for garrison and field conditions.
2. First aid under fire.
3. Law governing the use of force
4. Weapons maintenance & safety
5. Tactical training, focused on immediate action drills, shoot/no-shoot criteria, and coordinating with law enforcement or other first responders.
6. Techniques of military instruction (Train the Trainer)
Qualification isn't one-and-done; elements will require at least annual re-certification--and the training for same will need to be done mostly on the certificant's own time. However, an individual who maintains the qualifications should be viewed with favor for promotion, retention, and assignment preference, as these are useful skills for any branch of service.
Armed recruiters would not have made much of a difference at Chattanooga, because the shooter engaged from standoff range outside the recruiting office, and very few of the victims would've had the ability to engage effectively.
Another problem: there are a LOT of NCOs and officers whom I would not trust with small arms in a tactical situation, because they haven't learned the skills needed to survive said situation--or even the skills required to safely bear arms. Combat troops have this drilled into them--but combat arms personnel make up only about 10% of the Marines and Army, and far less of the Navy and Air Force.
This problem will kill any arm-the-troops initiative because no commander in his right mind is going to risk the consequences of a (likely to happen) negligent discharge.
So, what needs to be done?
I believe we need a force protection training program to equip non-combat-arms personnel with the skills needed to safely handle firearms on a routine basis, the tactical skill to respond to an attack, the ability to act as an instructor and leader in local force protection initiatives, and risk assessment and mitigation skills to aid the commander in establishing and maintaining force protection measures.
This program would be joint (as this is a joint problem, and many of the most vulnerable facilities are joint ones; also, I want one standard for critical things like interfacing with local law enforcement). To be eligible to apply for the program, one must be an NCO or warrant/ commissioned officer (Army SP4s and USAF SrAs need not apply; in the E-4 ranks, only Army hard-stripe Corporals and USAF SSGs are eligible unless those branches change their manpower policies), with at least four years' time in service.
The evaluation process begins with the chain of command; consideration for the assessment phase will only be given to those who have favorable endorsement from their chain of command to the O-6 CO/OIC level. COs and OICs are expected to interview the candidate and the candidate's immediate seniors in the chain of command prior to granting favorable endorsement to the application.
The candidate will then participate in the assessment phase. This will consist of a physical fitness test and relevant portions of the USMC Combat Fitness Test (notably, the buddy drag/carry and movement under fire sections). All of this will be given at the end of a full day's work--the enemy isn't going to attack you when you're fresh and ready to go, after all! The assessment phase concludes with an interview by the selection board; this will be aimed at assessing the candidate's maturity and ability to instruct and advise.
Successful candidates will then undergo an eight-week program focused on the following areas:
1. Threat analysis, with risk analysis and mitigation strategies for garrison and field conditions.
2. First aid under fire.
3. Law governing the use of force
4. Weapons maintenance & safety
5. Tactical training, focused on immediate action drills, shoot/no-shoot criteria, and coordinating with law enforcement or other first responders.
6. Techniques of military instruction (Train the Trainer)
Qualification isn't one-and-done; elements will require at least annual re-certification--and the training for same will need to be done mostly on the certificant's own time. However, an individual who maintains the qualifications should be viewed with favor for promotion, retention, and assignment preference, as these are useful skills for any branch of service.
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Sgt Ken Prescott
I work in Navy Civilian HR, and we DO recruit retirees as police officers and other force protection jobs. But we also have a manpower cap. So you'd either end up hiring a private military contractor to do it (and that carries some HUGE issues regarding liability and how tightly we can control their work), or you use existing personnel to best effect.
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Suspended Profile
Sgt Ken Prescott Fascinating thoughts. But, going back to my comment above - we arm E1's right out of boot camp and send them to combat - why limit this to E4/CPL and above with four years?
Why can we trust these folks with weapons down range, but not at home? It's a huge intellectual disconnect, imho...
Why can we trust these folks with weapons down range, but not at home? It's a huge intellectual disconnect, imho...
Sgt Ken Prescott
We do not send them to combat straight out of boot camp--there's further training in their combatant specialty, and predeployment training, etc. Typically, we send them off at the 6 to 9 month mark--i.e., after 3-6 months of training.
I was an 18-year-old knucklehead POG serving with a bunch of 18-year-old POGs during the reign of Ronaldus Magnus. Looking back, I thank God that we weren't routinely armed. As it was, the Provost Marshall's Office typically had one negligent discharge a month, and about a quarter of those resulted in injury.
What I am looking to do is to create a cadre of people in the non-combat arms community (i.e., most of the military, and damn near ALL of the USAF and USN) able to stand up and competently execute a Force Protection program--ALL phases of it, including arming subordinates when appropriate, and supervising those subordinates when they are armed. For that, you need some experience and maturity.
I can tell you this much: if we armed everyone in CONUS right now, we'd have more KIA/DOW/WIA as a result of negligent discharges than we'd ever get from ISIS doing a full-court press in CONUS. And I can tell you that the prospect of NDs is why no CO is going to authorize everyone carrying hot weapons.
I was an 18-year-old knucklehead POG serving with a bunch of 18-year-old POGs during the reign of Ronaldus Magnus. Looking back, I thank God that we weren't routinely armed. As it was, the Provost Marshall's Office typically had one negligent discharge a month, and about a quarter of those resulted in injury.
What I am looking to do is to create a cadre of people in the non-combat arms community (i.e., most of the military, and damn near ALL of the USAF and USN) able to stand up and competently execute a Force Protection program--ALL phases of it, including arming subordinates when appropriate, and supervising those subordinates when they are armed. For that, you need some experience and maturity.
I can tell you this much: if we armed everyone in CONUS right now, we'd have more KIA/DOW/WIA as a result of negligent discharges than we'd ever get from ISIS doing a full-court press in CONUS. And I can tell you that the prospect of NDs is why no CO is going to authorize everyone carrying hot weapons.
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
There are plenty of retired military out here with small arms experience. SEABEES and Gunners Mates are two ratings with the most experience. SEABEES also have infantry training. We're a little long in the tooth but some of us still go to the range. I blow through 500 rounds a month on various types of guns and I'm sure there are others like me.
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As a retired senior LEO this is MO. There shouldn't be a blanket statement that says arm all officers and NCOs. Some of them scared the shit out me when they were handling their assigned M9. There needs to be a designated certifier on who can carry. Each base has one person that signs a concealed carry card (someone in the PMO). There needs to be an established qualification table for concealed carriers and designated scorers. If they do not put in control measures there is going to be people hooking up their buddies, so they can carry, who shouldn't be carrying. If they do not establish controls, people carrying that shouldn't be carrying, are going to hurt people that shouldn't be getting hurt.
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SGT (Join to see)
Alot of civilians get shot with their own pistol, because they don't have the mental readiness to use it when the situation calls for it. The military isn't different.
We have alot of people in the military that isn't ready to pack heat on a daily basis. One thing we never bring up when this discussions come about - do you realize how many lost weapons we will have in the military if we arm everyone daily.
We have alot of people in the military that isn't ready to pack heat on a daily basis. One thing we never bring up when this discussions come about - do you realize how many lost weapons we will have in the military if we arm everyone daily.
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PO2 Robert Cuminale
Wettstein, Why not? North Carolina requires applicants for a concealed carry permit to attend training classes and a minimum target score before issuing a permit. Lost weapons? Charge them for them. People shoot themselves because they aren't deliberate in their actions or don't appreciate the weapons capabilities. If you can't be trained to use a firearm safely and effectively you don't need to be in the military. You weren't recruited just for your computer skills.
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Read This Next
I like the Marine saying, "Every Marine a rifleman". I don't care if you are a cook or an IT worker, you are primarily a military member and leadership is at fault if you think you're just a tradesmen.