Posted on Mar 25, 2022
How do you feel about the army reducing physical fitness standards for females and older soldiers?
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“Following a three year review the Army has scrapped plans to use the same physical fitness test for all soldiers, choosing instead to have reduced standards to allow all women and older soldiers to pass.” Announced March 23, 2022.
Physical Training
Fitness
Morale
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
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This is nothing more than Army leadership failing to acknowledge sunk costs on what was always a highly flawed test since inception. Instead of pulling the plug, like what happens in hundreds of failed RDT&E projects, Big Army doubles down on the program to avoid embarrassment. Now they don’t even claim it is an assessment of “combat readiness”, which was the whole point of the new test in the first place.
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I think we all knew this would happen - and nothing on the ACFT was ever final anyway before this. So they didn't really reduce the standards when there were no set standards to begin with. The standards were constantly changing this whole time.
I have just over 2 years left to retire - I'll take this. I wouldn't mind if "phased implementation" was "phased" another year honestly!
I have just over 2 years left to retire - I'll take this. I wouldn't mind if "phased implementation" was "phased" another year honestly!
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I see it as the Army finally saw some common sense in that not every single Soldier is made the same. Some great at running...others not so much. Others are great at push ups...others not so much. And while the standards may be "lowered," it is still up to the Soldier to pass the events. Having done the 3 event test for years.....and now the ACFT, I can say that the new test....while with newer/updated standards....will kick your six.
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MSG (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) - Try having to do the SDC while having achilles tendon issues. No fun. I barely make time.
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SFC (Join to see)
MSG (Join to see) - For us, the older generation, if we don't warm up or stretch enough we may end up with a torn calf...on the SDC
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It's kind of a no-brainer. If physical fitness standards are part of promotion evaluation, and one group biologically will always score lower than another, then you have just disadvantaged one group and opened up a class action lawsuit.
The Army either had to get rid of PT standards in promotions or make them more fair. Some of the standard are the same for women and men, and some are not. Anyone who expects the majority of women to deadlift 340 pounds is ridiculous, especially when you consider how many younger females in the Army weigh under 150 pounds. If a woman who weighs 100 pounds deadlifts 180, while a guy who weighs 200 deadlifts 300, by most athletic standards the woman has outlifted the man by body weight percentage.
As for this being a combat test, how many people who have successfully deployed as an Intel, commo, HR, transportation, supply person have had to drag a 200 pound person or deadlift 300 pound? Very, very few. Not enough that the promotions of every support MOS should be heavily influenced by it.
Also, I would like to point out that the male standards really did not drop with age. Once you hit about 50, sure the max drops. But when you're 50 your PT score is not a factor for promotion between you and your other 50 year old peers.
The Army either had to get rid of PT standards in promotions or make them more fair. Some of the standard are the same for women and men, and some are not. Anyone who expects the majority of women to deadlift 340 pounds is ridiculous, especially when you consider how many younger females in the Army weigh under 150 pounds. If a woman who weighs 100 pounds deadlifts 180, while a guy who weighs 200 deadlifts 300, by most athletic standards the woman has outlifted the man by body weight percentage.
As for this being a combat test, how many people who have successfully deployed as an Intel, commo, HR, transportation, supply person have had to drag a 200 pound person or deadlift 300 pound? Very, very few. Not enough that the promotions of every support MOS should be heavily influenced by it.
Also, I would like to point out that the male standards really did not drop with age. Once you hit about 50, sure the max drops. But when you're 50 your PT score is not a factor for promotion between you and your other 50 year old peers.
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Sir,
If over 90% of troops in a given category (Female, over 40, National Guard, etc.) can pass the existing fitness standard and less than 60% in that same category can pass the new standard, chances are pretty good that the problem isn't the troops, it is the standard.
Now, you can argue whether the problem is that the existing standard is too "soft" or the new standard is too hard. But either way, the problem is the standard not the troops. We have told these Soldiers - and our Recruiters, Drill Sergeants, and IET Commanders - what "fit" is. If previously "fit" Soldiers become "unfit" overnight - in mass quantities - then something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
If over 90% of troops in a given category (Female, over 40, National Guard, etc.) can pass the existing fitness standard and less than 60% in that same category can pass the new standard, chances are pretty good that the problem isn't the troops, it is the standard.
Now, you can argue whether the problem is that the existing standard is too "soft" or the new standard is too hard. But either way, the problem is the standard not the troops. We have told these Soldiers - and our Recruiters, Drill Sergeants, and IET Commanders - what "fit" is. If previously "fit" Soldiers become "unfit" overnight - in mass quantities - then something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
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LTC Ray Buenteo
Yes but now it’s not about soldiers meeting a standard now it’s a standard meeting the soldier
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MAJ (Join to see)
I know after 23 years, I feel every joint, every morning. I am relieved my 44 yo body isn’t held to the same standard as an 18 yo! They cut me some slack on the height/weight, why not for fitness standards?
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And an excerpt from the Daily Mail article @ link. And —> an interesting/troubling read.
“... Secretary of the Army Christine Wormuth, the first woman to lead the armed forces branch, said during her confirmation hearing that she planned to revamp the fitness test with an eye to closing the gender gap...”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10645629/Woke-army-introduces-new-easier-combat-fitness-test-women-armed-forces.html
“... Secretary of the Army Christine Wormuth, the first woman to lead the armed forces branch, said during her confirmation hearing that she planned to revamp the fitness test with an eye to closing the gender gap...”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10645629/Woke-army-introduces-new-easier-combat-fitness-test-women-armed-forces.html
Woke army introduces easier combat fitness test that lowers standards
The Army is changing several of its fitness test exercises including the dreaded leg tucks in favor of planksbecause about half of all female soldiers were unable to complete the exercise.
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LTC Ray Buenteo
Lol. A mile will not be any shorter and 100lbs will not be less heavier to accommodate the gender gap.
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Source: The Hill, https://thehill.com/policy/defense/599459-army-approves-reduced-physical-fitness-standards-for-women-older-soldiers
Also quoted in that article:
"Service leaders hoped the newer test — the first such change in more than 40 years — would better replicate tasks needed for combat while reducing the risk of injuries.
But the new fitness curriculum was quickly criticized after it became clear women, older male soldiers and National Guard and Reserve troops had difficulty passing it.
About 44 percent of women failed the test from October 2020 to April 2021, compared to about 7 percent of men, Military.com found at the time.
“ACFT scores collected during the diagnostic period show some groups failing at noticeably higher rates,” the RAND study states. “The biggest impacts are observed for women, but we also see differences in pass rates across components, with the U.S. Army Reserve and the Army National Guard lagging behind the Regular Army, and across military occupational specialties.”
It wasn't just women or older soldiers not passing - there were issues among Guard and Reserves as well.
Also quoted in that article:
"Service leaders hoped the newer test — the first such change in more than 40 years — would better replicate tasks needed for combat while reducing the risk of injuries.
But the new fitness curriculum was quickly criticized after it became clear women, older male soldiers and National Guard and Reserve troops had difficulty passing it.
About 44 percent of women failed the test from October 2020 to April 2021, compared to about 7 percent of men, Military.com found at the time.
“ACFT scores collected during the diagnostic period show some groups failing at noticeably higher rates,” the RAND study states. “The biggest impacts are observed for women, but we also see differences in pass rates across components, with the U.S. Army Reserve and the Army National Guard lagging behind the Regular Army, and across military occupational specialties.”
It wasn't just women or older soldiers not passing - there were issues among Guard and Reserves as well.
Army approves reduced physical fitness standards for women, older soldiers
Following a three-year review, the Army has scrapped plans touse the same physical fitness test for all soldiers, choosing instead to have some reduced standards to allow women and older soldiers to pass, the service anno
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I assume they are having trouble with retention and Covid didn’t help. I suppose you have to do something to keep the numbers up. But as an offshoot it could affect morale good and bad.
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LTC Ray Buenteo
The purpose of the physical fitness program is to develop the fitness of the soldier to the standard not set the standard to the fitness of the soldier.
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MSgt (Join to see)
LTC Ray Buenteo - I agree, but the Army, Hell the whole damn military does some strange things. Not a whole Hell of a lot we can do about it.
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Am I missing something? While the pass and 100 percent standard for women changed drastically, it just looks like the eliminated the categories on the Men's side. Didn't see a lot of difference in the scoring until you hit the above 40 group.
I never had a problem with the gender scoring systems of the APFT. I did have a problem with the Army having a separate PT Standard and claiming the female soldiers are the physical equal of the male soldiers.
I never had a problem with the gender scoring systems of the APFT. I did have a problem with the Army having a separate PT Standard and claiming the female soldiers are the physical equal of the male soldiers.
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
CPT Lawrence Cable - Very few of anyone has maxed the ACFT the way it was - I think it's perhaps five or less who have completely maxed what it was.
Let's call the ACFT for what it's been - ill planned and not well thought out at all.
Women have been allowed in "combat" MOSs for several years now. I know some who are in those MOSs and they have performed just fine and at times better than their male counterparts. With or without any PT test. I mean we haven't really had a PT test for almost 3 years now...and yet people with heavy physical demand jobs are still doing them and women are doing them too. Is it a lot? Probably not but a lot of males don't choose those jobs either.
I'm just saying that no one ever said we're "physically equal" in the US military or the Army.
Oh and no males were failing it too - and there were failures in the Guard and Reserve as well. Also again do not blame women for the ACFT being a massive waste of time. This is not our fault. It was not planned well. It was not well thought out and they based scoring on women aged 20-26 I believe. Really? There's no way me pushing 40 I'm in the same shape as I was at 22 when I came in the Army. Also add in I gave birth to a child. That completely changes one's body. Are there women who can stay in shape after giving birth? Sure - but not all of us. That's the problem there's so many issues with the way this test came about but they wanna pin the failure of a gender neutral test on women. It's not our fault. At all.
Let's call the ACFT for what it's been - ill planned and not well thought out at all.
Women have been allowed in "combat" MOSs for several years now. I know some who are in those MOSs and they have performed just fine and at times better than their male counterparts. With or without any PT test. I mean we haven't really had a PT test for almost 3 years now...and yet people with heavy physical demand jobs are still doing them and women are doing them too. Is it a lot? Probably not but a lot of males don't choose those jobs either.
I'm just saying that no one ever said we're "physically equal" in the US military or the Army.
Oh and no males were failing it too - and there were failures in the Guard and Reserve as well. Also again do not blame women for the ACFT being a massive waste of time. This is not our fault. It was not planned well. It was not well thought out and they based scoring on women aged 20-26 I believe. Really? There's no way me pushing 40 I'm in the same shape as I was at 22 when I came in the Army. Also add in I gave birth to a child. That completely changes one's body. Are there women who can stay in shape after giving birth? Sure - but not all of us. That's the problem there's so many issues with the way this test came about but they wanna pin the failure of a gender neutral test on women. It's not our fault. At all.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff - We've had this discussion for a number of years now and I doubt that either will change our mind. I would think the "Transgender women" athletes would be enough to show the real difference in physical performance. Lia Thomas ranked somewhere above 400 as a male swimmer, dominates at a "woman". Back from my martial arts days, Lucia Rijker was undisputed Women's Champion Kickboxer, had four titles. Fought a unranked amateur man named Somchai Jaidee in an exhibition fight, got knocked out in the second round.
The point of that is that Top Women Athletes compete at the level of their Average Male counterparts.. I agree that in most of the jobs in the Army, that doesn't make much difference, but it does in some. Infantry and I would include Armor, I've busted track on an M60 and it can kick the butt of the whole crew. Yes, men wash out of both units all the time, but not at the same rate when the physical standards are the same.
The point of that is that Top Women Athletes compete at the level of their Average Male counterparts.. I agree that in most of the jobs in the Army, that doesn't make much difference, but it does in some. Infantry and I would include Armor, I've busted track on an M60 and it can kick the butt of the whole crew. Yes, men wash out of both units all the time, but not at the same rate when the physical standards are the same.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SFC Bernard Walko - Kind of my point. I served in Divisional Combat Engineer units in the Guard, which at that time still had the CEV and AVLB's, as well as the M113's. Even a day of track maintenance on the M113 could be a long and back breaking job, the M60 and M48 (yes, I had a M48 Chassis AVLB in my Company) were a workout.
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