Posted on May 9, 2016
Has anybody successfully submitted an appeal against a falsified NCOER?
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This question was brought to me recently. A concerned peer is just now finding out about the NCOER appeal process. Their concern is the counseling dates were falsified giving the individual no time to rehabilitate from a 4/4 rating. Also, to clarify it's not just the counseling dates in question. What is the level of proof needed etc.? I personally have not dealt with this type of situation, but want to help them out the best I can without just sending them to the HRC website.
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 130
Yes and I had a NCOER similar to yours. I can help you through the process if you would like. Keep in mind that the appeals process is harder because you have to the burden of proof ranging 60% or higher in your favor before the board will overturn it. You can also go through the ARBC Army Review Board of Corrections where the burden of proof is only 50% in your favor. If you need any more help send me a message and I got you!
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NCOER's and OER's are all bullshit. Either everybody's the most "wonderful" addition to the earth's population or they're the scum of the earth (and 98% are the former.) ALL of the "children" can't be "exceptional," unless one lives in Lake Wobegon, and, sadly, that is what these so-called "evaluations" have become over the past 20 years. Political "correctness" epitomized. is what OER's and NCOER's have become. Even the language contained in these documents is codified, specified, and dictated (in too many cases). it is the "Peter Principle" brought to life and it is the underlying reason we have the government, and the so-called "leadership" that we have in this country. No-one is willing to call "bullshit on this perverted nonsense and thus, we are inevitably doomed.
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SFC (Join to see)
Amen Sir! I am prior Air Force now Army, and the Army evaluation system has always in my career seemed politically liberalized! If you polish boots of your raters to a shiny gloss you are golden. If you do an outstanding job and not allow yourself to be assimilated into their politics, then be ready to receive a crap rating. I gave up on real un-falsified NCOER's long ago. All I can say now is.....16 months...
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CPT (Join to see)
Sir, I concur 100%. The system was intended to provide a broad range of ratings to accurately evaluate a Soldier's performance, but it became so bloated that any rating less than a 1/1 or 1/2 was perceived as being unfair or detrimental because that was what everyone else was receiving. I was told I had to proved negative counseling's to support giving an NCO a 2/2. That same attitude is already influencing the new EES system, but I'm hoping that forcing the rater to manage a profile and limit the number of top blocks provides some sort of check on the current mentality.
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SFC Ronald Widiger
NCOER is just another tool in the 'Good Old Boy' toolbox that really doesn't mean 'jack' until you have 15 years in and then everything on paper is made to make you look worthless.
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SGT Patrick Gaebelein
I had an NCOER that had three forged signatures: mine, the CO, and the Plt Ldr. Only my rater was legit. I appealed it on principle, not for the content but because of the forgeries. Got a lot of pushback, so i went to JAG and for all intnets, sued to the army. The JAG lawyer got sworn statements from all involved, the rater had retired and the time crutnch, you can see why it was forged. DA pushed back saying i would have unrated time...I was an E-5, big deal... my lawyer counteted and demanded a letter explaining the unrated time be inserted in its place. The NCOER was removed and destroyed. My suggestion is if you can prove inaccuracies on the NCOER, go to JAG
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Did the person sign a blank form? Did they see this? I would never have signed this. I had a command the wanted me to sign a blank one and said it would be good to go. I refused to sign and the 1SG and PL tried to hem me up for not following an order. You CANNOT sign a blank form. Glad I did not sign. We had someone who did and they sent up a bad one. He did not even get a copy.
In this case I would appeal this ASAP. THIS will end his career if he plans to stay in. Do they have proof of all the things they put on there? Just them saying it is not proof. They must have supporting paperwork. If they ask the soldier to sign blank counseling or to backdate them DO NOT do that. That is also against regs. I have seen many, many leaders do that. "Just backdate it. No big deal. Help me out!" I never would "help them out". If it comes down to who gets in trouble for stuff, you know it all goes downhill right? And who is at the bottom and loses the most? Go to S1 and start an appeal on this NOW. I agree with the others on here. Who ever wrote this, has no clue and needs classes. If the CoC let it go up, it is a poor CoC or just did not care. Either way it is poor leadership and needs to be called out. Your 1SG should have stopped this before it left the company. Then CDR. Hell the PS and PL should have never submitted such trash. Good luck.
In this case I would appeal this ASAP. THIS will end his career if he plans to stay in. Do they have proof of all the things they put on there? Just them saying it is not proof. They must have supporting paperwork. If they ask the soldier to sign blank counseling or to backdate them DO NOT do that. That is also against regs. I have seen many, many leaders do that. "Just backdate it. No big deal. Help me out!" I never would "help them out". If it comes down to who gets in trouble for stuff, you know it all goes downhill right? And who is at the bottom and loses the most? Go to S1 and start an appeal on this NOW. I agree with the others on here. Who ever wrote this, has no clue and needs classes. If the CoC let it go up, it is a poor CoC or just did not care. Either way it is poor leadership and needs to be called out. Your 1SG should have stopped this before it left the company. Then CDR. Hell the PS and PL should have never submitted such trash. Good luck.
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CSM (Join to see)
I had a 1SG that made departing NCOs sign three blank sheets of paper in the approximate signature block area to run through the printer in case corrections were made. This was 15 years ago. Unethical is unethical. However lack of counseling on any particular subject is not grounds for appeal. You don't have to counsel a NCO to not assault their spouse or drive drunk or even fulfill basic requirements of their position outlined in ARs and unit policy. Culpable ineffeciency.
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MSG (Join to see)
no hell no and more hell no, you do have a choice, if the rating is wrong dont sign i didnt i simply walked away, verification of administrative data thats easy, but the rating and bullets are not, without the ncoer quarterly counselling to back them up, its false documentation period
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SGM Nathan Thomas
Two things, if the NCOER is blank,no you do not sign that one. If it is filled out then the rated NCO’s signature verifies the following: They seen the completed report, the administrative data (Part I) is correct (except Part Ik through o), the rating officials are proper (Part II), the duty description is accurate (Part III) and includes the counseling dates, the APFT and height/weight entries are correct (Part IVc), and that the rated NCO is aware of the appeals process. It is important that rated NCOs and rating officials clearly understand that the rated NCO’s signature does not constitute agreement or disagreement with the evaluations of the rater and/or senior rater. NOTE: If the rated Soldier is unavailable, unable, or fails to sign the DA Form 2166-8 for any reason, the senior rater will either resolve the problem or explain why in DA Form 2166-8, Part Ve and the rated Soldier’s signature is left blank. The report will not be delayed because it lacks the rated Soldier’s signature. Now, I am talking about back as late as 1997 and I cannot tell you if things have changed since then.
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I wish this forum had existed when I had problems with a CSM who was rater and wrote LIES on my NCOER during my 26 year career. He had zero paper to back his comments and there was NEVER any counseling of any form done. I took it directly to my commander (colonel) and basically blew me off, saying he had faith in whatever he did/does. Beer drinkin' buddies at the club afterwards!
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From a 42A and a squad leader point of view, the rater, senior rater, and reviewer on this NCOER NEEDS to attend a NCOER course. I have seen many NCOERS in my career and this is one of the worst written NCOER that I have seen. Most of the bullet points that the rater is providing should have reflected against the rated Soldier's Army Values Part IV. For example, disrespect towards rater and other senior NCOs and failure to report to mandatory formations should reflect against his Duty, Respect, and Honor. As far as the appeal process the rater should have some type of documentation to prove the rated NCO is not preforming to the standards that should have been established through his/her initial counseling. Failure to report to mandatory formations and unsecured weapon should have resulted in an Article 15, summarized, company grade or field grade, which would also provide documentation to the circumstances of the NCOER. The rated NCO should be able to file an appeal to HRC on the NCOER. Once the appeal is started the rater will have to supply the documentation to HRC to justify the ratings on the NCO. Failure to comply with the demands from HRC can and will most likely result in the NCOER redacted from the rated NCO's record. It is situations like this that makes the use of counseling's, initial, monthly, and performance based, important factors at the NCO level, as well as the attendance of NCOPD's classes conducted on NCOER writing.
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I have appealed and had an unfair, untrue, and falsified NCOER deleted from my record. I am willing to assist this NCO.
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SSG (Join to see)
1SG if you have the time can you please assist me in mine. Mine is unique. It will have to be discussed off line...
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My first question to this NCO would be was there any counseling done. If I was the senior rater or reviewer of this NCOER I would have asked the same question. When I was a Platoon Leader I had to make a hard choice to give an NCOER like this. My comments were not a vague as these and were backed up by documentation showing the pattern of incompetence along with the relief for cause memorandum that I did when I requested the commander remove this SSG from his position. I guess my point is there has to be documentation if you are going to produce an evaluation in this manner. The NCO needs to take a real hard look at themselves because it seems to me that the rater and SR are on the same sheet of music on the performance of this NCO.
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I to was once handed a bad NCOER and when i asked the person to produce the counseling's and other documentation they could not. And when I asked my platoon leader about it he said that this is what the first sergeant wanted me to have. I then went to see my CSM and all of it was fixed and the first sergeant was left flabbergasted.
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1SG Mark Wilson
Rater's should always have supporting documentation, if you are going to take the time to illustrate your Subordinate's performance correctly. (Good and Bad). NCO's can and should receive counselings outside of the quarterly counseling when needed. Bottom line , if it's not in writing , it didn't happen. Are Leader's Books Still around ??
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Kind of reminds me of the NCOER I received for being medically retired. I received an email from forward with a NCOER attached saying that I had a terrible report because I choose the MEB process over a deployment. I was told by the Rear D CSM to forward it to the division CSM and use the open door policy. The 1SG was pissed but I didn't have to sign in and soon after all of my raters were reassigned.
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