Posted on May 4, 2015
SSgt Michael Orcutt
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When I pinned on SSgt I tried to make an Airman do push-ups for disrespecting me and disobeying an order. Instead of presenting him with an administrative action (Paperwork), I was going to make him do "X" amount of push-ups every hour.

As I was briefing this out to the Airman I was pulled aside by our NCOIC and told that having him do push-ups was considered "hazing" and instead I should give him paperwork.

Everyone makes mistakes and I believe in trying to get my point across in different ways than just handing someone some paperwork and giving them an earful. The only way I could make an Airman push is if I was also doing push-ups as a "team Building" exercise.

Am I crazy for thinking this was rediculous? This is just something that happens in the Air Force, correct? Please forgive me if I was mislead, but I also corraberated what my NCOIC told me with my 1st Sgt.

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SFC Recruiter
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Your NCOIC needs to re evaluate their position as an NCO. As NCOs, we have more than one option for corrective training. Physical training should never be considered hazing unless there was no justification for correction. Many SMs would rather take a counseling statement than do a few push-ups. Push-ups are a good disciplinary tool that not only condition the mind, but also help maintain the physical readiness of the service member. Sometimes administrative action will do more harm than good. An NCO should be more concerned about maintaining discipline and enforcing standards and less about political corrective ness. We need to keep in mind that we are the U.S. Armed Forces and not a civilian corporation. If paperwork is their only answer, they need to work on their skills as an NCO.
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Capt Vickie Adams
Capt Vickie Adams
>1 y
MSgt Robyn Roberts - I enlisted in 1972. this was the way things were then.
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Capt Vickie Adams
Capt Vickie Adams
>1 y
TSgt (Join to see) - I enlisted in 1972. It was like that then. Has nothing to do with nowadays.
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MSgt Owner
MSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
In the Air Force if I got caught doing that I could wind up with a lot worse than an LOR. Its a damn good thing that NCOIC stopped that. A letter of counseling is really the way to go if the incident is not worthy of a major write up. We, 15 years ago, had full control over LOCs. I could chuck them when I wanted to. No one else needed to know about them.
My major in college was in psychology. The problem with this whole no punishment thing is that very few people in society have one ounce of understanding of learning theory. We cannot just remove punishment, usually positive punishment from the table and leave everything else as it is. That is exactly what society has done. We have to learn the intricacies of leading a learner toward success. That takes a hell of a lot of work and quite frankly over the heads of most people without the educational background. Even with all of that said, positive punishment has its place.
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Sgt Dale Briggs
Sgt Dale Briggs
5 y
I would think the Airman would be grateful to get smoked vs starting paperwork. A little sweat might save his career, and I’d make sure he understood the circumstances. Then again I might drop with him and out push his ass.
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MAJ Operations Officer (S3)
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I don't think it's hazing. I also think in most cases it's a better solution than paperwork. We've adopted such a "zero defects" mentality as a force that we lose good people over one lapse in judgment. I had a brand new Private say something extremely stupid right in front of me a few months back. To give you some background information, as a Company Commander I have a basic level of judicial authority. This is very different than the Air Force, where that authority is typically held at the O4 level and above.

I have no doubt I could have given this wayward troop the ARNG equivalent of a summarized article 15. At my level I also have authority over whether he gets promoted or not. However, instead of filing paperwork this Soldier spent the better part of 10 minutes at the position of attention getting chewed on and educated on why what he said was utterly inappropriate. After being released to his Squad Leader I'm relatively certain he was brought out behind the armory for an additional reminder as to why he can't behave that way. Am I assuming risk in handling it this way? Probably. But I'm also giving this young troop a second chance, something that immediately filing paperwork does not. I prefer to save the paperwork for the repeat offenders.
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TSgt Tyra Ott
TSgt Tyra Ott
9 y
PO3 Chris Scheide - I agree Chris. The ones that want to leave or not move up will take the write up. The ones that want to stay will willingly do the pushups. Those are the people you want to keep.
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CPT Multifunctional Logistician
CPT (Join to see)
9 y
MSgt Al Jones - MSgt Jones, this has nothing to do with Obama. This started in the late 90s, early 2000s because of the indiscretions of several leaders at training and permanent party units. The military went overboard in restriction what NCOs could do to "correct" Soldiers/Airmen/Sailors/Marines. At the time I believe it was necessary some of the abuses and toxic leadership that was taking place, but now this "softness" has become a part of our culture.
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LTC Signal Officer
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9 y
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I enlisted in my late 30's spent my 31 Birthday washing dishes at Ft Dixx NJ then at 32 I went to Ft Benning for OCS.....If you even made eye contact with a TAC officer you were pushing dirt.....I didn't care. I was there for only one reason.....to get a Commission. I was not going to let them break me......I retired as a Lt. Col. in 2008....I hear there are "Stress Cards" now.... what a joke.... Do the push ups.....get over it Buttercup ! BTW ever see saving PVT Ryan.....I served in the 29th Div. Light 22 years !
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SFC Daniel Zelch
SFC Daniel Zelch
>1 y
CPT (Join to see) - you are right, it has nothing to do with Obama. This touchy feely, you might hurt their feelings carp started under Clinton. I know, I was there. I fought it tooth and nail. An NCO makes an on the spot correction, then you move on.
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MSgt Security Business Analyst
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Seriously? First, You underminded your own authority by doing that. Respect has to be earned and sometimes it has to be the hard way. If you put someone in the front leaning rest what are you willing to do in return?

Look, as an NCO you must carry yourself just a little bit better than you did as an Airman. Furthermore give that young Air Fella a choice. You wanna do 20 push ups or do you want a paper trail? Remember, the punishment has to fit the crime.

Also, do not admonish one of your subordinates before you tell them your expectations of them and learn their expectations of you.

Now, the @sshole in me is going to come out. Your NCOIC should have allowed you to finish the task you started with the Airman. Pulling you aside underminded your authority. I never did that to my subordinates, but I would chew their ass in private afterwards.

Pave your own road as an NCO and drag your Airmen along as well.
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Maj Foreign Area Officer
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9 y
SSG (Join to see) - Well, you said " I don't think that anyone that asks a question on this forum deserves that level of disrespect that you showed." And I pointed out that telling someone to push because one feels disrespected is, well, just as disrespectful. It teaches nothing, but certainly gives the one ordering a sense of satisfaction for inflicting punishment.
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SSG Recruiting And Retention Nco
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9 y
Maj (Join to see) - Again, I was not referring to that. I was only mentioning that somebody asked a question and got laughed at for asking it. That was what I called disrespectful. Your views on physical punishment are yours and you are more than welcome to them. We are obviously speaking about two different things, so I'm going to continue with my life. Take care!
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Maj Foreign Area Officer
Maj (Join to see)
9 y
I guess you don't see the irony. One day perhaps.
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TSgt Jim McGill
TSgt Jim McGill
9 y
I don't know how to do my own post on this thing so I will have to respond.....You need to give up the ghost people. I transferred from the Army to the Air Force. (Don't ask me why) It was quite the culture shock. I came to the conclusion (and so did a few dual service personnel) that the Air Force is with few exceptions is a 9 to 5, it is not my job. God I can't believe Iraq had no air conditioning, "pt is now manditory?" I can't help you I'm on my break, Are we really in the military? Leadership truly wants to run the pace like a corporation branch of service. It is where no one can get there feelings hurt, subordinates freely run up the chain if they don't like the task they were given and they dont have regulations, they have instructions because regs are too harsh.
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