Posted on May 31, 2016
Do you believe that organized religion is an impediment to scientific knowledge?
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It's "common knowledge" that religious dogma is counter-intuitive to scientific knowledge. However, it seems to me that common knowledge is a lot less scientific than religious dogma. The problem likely stems from the misinformation that passes for history as taught in schools and colleges these days.
Take, for example, the story of Columbus's petition to the Spanish Court to finance is expedition seeking a westward route to the riches of China and India (thus avoiding Arab monopoly on trade to that region). We were taught that the Royal Wise Men argued the world is flat while Columbus is pictured holding an orange to illustrate that it is a sphere. Actually, everyone at that time knew it was spherical. The debate centered on the size of the earth. Columbus was way off in his estimates while the Jews and Arabs serving as scientists to the Royal Court were only about 1% off in their estimates. In actuality, Columbus would never have survived to reach his goal if the New World didn't get in his way.
Yes, there were periods of history wherein church leaders argued for the scientific accuracy of their religious books. However, that hasn't applied in many centuries. As for including a caricature of a rabbi in this cartoon the artist belies a prejudice which would indicate that he never looked at list of Nobel Prizes in science awarded to Jews. As for Muslims, they did have a golden age of scientific research and discovery for a brief time while Christians were prosecuting sea captains who dared carry charts on their ships which contradicted the biblical descriptions of earth. But, that was then. This is now...
Sure, there are fundamentalists clinging to some notions of Intelligent Design, but in truth, there is no more evidence against their claims than there is supporting them. There is still a limit to scientific knowledge that allows "wiggle room" for religious explanations (and I'm sure there will be those who will now jump in to dispute my claim even though their scientific foundations are no more compelling than the Creationists).
So, what sorts of "Common Knowledge" do you rely on? Are you willing to mention them here so they can be challenged?
Take, for example, the story of Columbus's petition to the Spanish Court to finance is expedition seeking a westward route to the riches of China and India (thus avoiding Arab monopoly on trade to that region). We were taught that the Royal Wise Men argued the world is flat while Columbus is pictured holding an orange to illustrate that it is a sphere. Actually, everyone at that time knew it was spherical. The debate centered on the size of the earth. Columbus was way off in his estimates while the Jews and Arabs serving as scientists to the Royal Court were only about 1% off in their estimates. In actuality, Columbus would never have survived to reach his goal if the New World didn't get in his way.
Yes, there were periods of history wherein church leaders argued for the scientific accuracy of their religious books. However, that hasn't applied in many centuries. As for including a caricature of a rabbi in this cartoon the artist belies a prejudice which would indicate that he never looked at list of Nobel Prizes in science awarded to Jews. As for Muslims, they did have a golden age of scientific research and discovery for a brief time while Christians were prosecuting sea captains who dared carry charts on their ships which contradicted the biblical descriptions of earth. But, that was then. This is now...
Sure, there are fundamentalists clinging to some notions of Intelligent Design, but in truth, there is no more evidence against their claims than there is supporting them. There is still a limit to scientific knowledge that allows "wiggle room" for religious explanations (and I'm sure there will be those who will now jump in to dispute my claim even though their scientific foundations are no more compelling than the Creationists).
So, what sorts of "Common Knowledge" do you rely on? Are you willing to mention them here so they can be challenged?
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 20
PO3 Sandra Gomke
If I may:
Religion is an institution established by man for various reasons. Exert control, instill morality, stroke egos, or whatever it does. Organized, structured religions all but remove god from the equation. You confess your sins to a clergy member, go to elaborate churches to worship, told what to pray and when to pray it. All those factors remove you from god.
Spirituality is born in a person and develops in the person. It may be kick started by a religion, or it may be kick started by a revelation. Spirituality extends to all facets of a person’s life. Spirituality is chosen while religion is often times forced. Being spiritual to me is more important and better than being religious.
True spirituality is something that is found deep within oneself. It is your way of loving, accepting and relating to the world and people around you. It cannot be found in a church or by believing in a certain way.
I saw this on a Hispanic disease prevention website and found it revealing.
Religion is an institution established by man for various reasons. Exert control, instill morality, stroke egos, or whatever it does. Organized, structured religions all but remove god from the equation. You confess your sins to a clergy member, go to elaborate churches to worship, told what to pray and when to pray it. All those factors remove you from god.
Spirituality is born in a person and develops in the person. It may be kick started by a religion, or it may be kick started by a revelation. Spirituality extends to all facets of a person’s life. Spirituality is chosen while religion is often times forced. Being spiritual to me is more important and better than being religious.
True spirituality is something that is found deep within oneself. It is your way of loving, accepting and relating to the world and people around you. It cannot be found in a church or by believing in a certain way.
I saw this on a Hispanic disease prevention website and found it revealing.
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Sgt (Join to see)
PO3 Sandra Gomke - Very interesting, especially the first paragraph and "organized, structured religions all but remove god from the equation." The sad part is very few in the religious systems see this.
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I am religious and understand science as investigations to expand knowledge. Science doesn't lie to us. It develops as new evidence comes up. I recognize that even as I can't possibly understand all of God's thoughts, I cannot expect science to know everything either
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CPT Jack Durish
Science doesn't lie to us. You are correct. However, liars use science to lie to us. See Climate Change/Catastrophe.
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Separation of religion and state are a major issue in this argument. I'll simply state that it was Government and their control of power that persecuted scientific research. So long as Government isn't in charge of religions and religions have no control over Government it is a very minor issue. When religions are separate from Government this isn't really ever a significant issue.
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CPT Jack Durish
What is the basis of "separation of religion and state"? I can't find it. Certainly not in the First Amendment. Religion is the warp of our nation's fabric. Everything else including its culture, its government, its laws, etc, are its weft. Even those who deny their spirituality or eschew religion are caught up in that fabric. And that warp is Judeo-Christian in origin.
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Hey, don't me the Catholic church is hindering scientific investigation. The Pope admitted Galileo was right!
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/31/world/after-350-years-vatican-says-galileo-was-right-it-moves.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/31/world/after-350-years-vatican-says-galileo-was-right-it-moves.html
After 350 Years, Vatican Says Galileo Was Right: It Moves
More than 350 years after the Roman Catholic Church condemned Galileo, Pope John Paul II is poised to rectify one of the Church's most infamous wrongs -- the persecution of the Italian astronomer and physicist for proving the Earth moves around the Sun. With a formal statement at the Pontifical Academy of Sciences on Saturday, Vatican officials said the Pope will formally close a 13-year investigation into the Church's condemnation of Galileo...
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Incidentally, everyone always yaks about Darwin for evolution, leaving out booth Huxley, as well as Gregor Mendel, the latter being work of considerably more quantitative and objective caliber, just an observation, many thanks.
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I disagree with what was said below that science is a religion, having been, though now VA approved as total perm disabled recently, extensively trained to be one. There are definite phiosophic differences between a science and a religion, though the concept of scientific dogma, as opposed to a religious dogma, is, of course, a relevant philosophic point. That being said, religion is a purely human construct, created both as a means of ethically indoctrinating kids, as well as to create an ethical framework for adult existence. Theology, however , is an altogether different matter, the concept of deity, as I'd mentioned elsewhere on the site here recently, has, in fact, very valid scientific basis in fact. The word "belief", however, is, in my view, inconsistent with science, as well as needlessly metaphysical in its conceptualizations and associated precepts. The word "convinced", is, at least to my way of thinking, admittedly, far more apt as a descriptive, whether scientifcmor otherwise, as well as far more objective as a pedagogical concept. There was an excellent paper by Konrad Zuse, a German ww2 computer scientist, now little known, on the concept of the universe as a computer, with recent mention on the site here of the universe being quite possibly experimentally verifiable as an actual hologram, per se. Anyone considering such questions, should, I think, read the paper by Zuse, it is available online, I have seen it. Also, sainthood, which I have made a study of, as well as of comparative religion, has very real and concrete scientific basis in fact, in terms of the lack of corruption in human remains of saints, as has been witnessed and dcumented many times throughout history. However, while I've read many religious treatises, as well as existened such disciplines as epistemology, the concept of miracles and or a human actually being divine are, I am afraid, aspects of which I am, unfortunately, not yet convinced. Deity in general, certainly, the only accurate definition of deity, the only one sufficiently all encompassing, is the sum of all minds everywhere, not merely on earth, on other civilizations elsewhere, which will inevitably be found, that, I think as with dismissing the flat earth concept, is now only a matter of time, a when, not an if, by all means, to think otherwise bynthe human race would now be absurdly egocentric as well as ethnocentric, I should think. All of the major religious figures, at least from the standpoint of their ethical philosophies, have been, pretty uniformly, brilliant, however, I will not focus on any one as being a central dogma for huiman existence either. I tend to pick and choose, accepting certain viewpoints, while dismissing others. Science has nothing whatever to do with religion, to my way of thinking, other than as a philosophy for the objective evaluation of evidence. There is a mathematical theorem by the logician Kurt Godel, to the effect that nothing, essentially, is provable, only disprovable. I can explain more if desired ,espec about such topics as quantum mechanics, if desired, however, neither that, nor any other theory is suitable, in my view, for consideration from a religious standpoint, though, that is, of course, my own viewpoint, certainly. Also, any deity must, of necessity have two principal abilities, telepathy, and psychokinesis. However, I think it the monumental height of human hubris to think that the deity is at all concerned with the everyday goings on of the human race. And, if there is a deity here, then all other civilizations, on all other planets, must also have a deity hence, they must all be the same deity, for one to exist at all, any other view, to my mind, would essentially be reductio ad absurdum, if you will. I hope that was of interest, do not expect to be agreed with, by any means, by anyone, and would be eager for anyu thoughts, hoping that all of the foregoing at least helps engender discussion, if nothing else, many thanks.
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Some versions, especially the fundamentalists in Christianity, Islam, etc. are absolutely an impediment to the pursuit of scientific knowledge.
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CSM Michael Salfai
PO3 Sandra Gomke - Really? Fundamentalists, especially in Southern states insisting that Creationism be included in Science textbooks? Dominionism?
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CPT Jack Durish
PO3 Sandra Gomke - Mankind has a boundless thirst for knowledge and a hunger for moral and ethical guidance. It seems to me that discussions go off the rails when people conflate the two into one authority. My library includes both scientific and religious texts because I can't see how the two can be conflated.
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PO3 Sandra Gomke
CPT Jack Durish - Sounds like my library! A lot of moral and ethical guidance can be found under "And it harm none". I do thirst for knowledge, though. I can never tell where I'm going to find it!
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Well brother, how about you check into whether Isaac Newton, Gregor Mendel, Mark Hopkins, and Immanuel Kant found religion to be an impediment to scientific knowledge, and then we can talk about it?
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CPT (Join to see)
And of course I could have cited a great many other modern examples, but I'm not one of those who believes that Thursday is better than Wednesday, and Friday better still.
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CSM Michael Salfai
The folks you cited were products of their time. Science was not as advanced as it is these days and a lot of myths still held sway. Religion only serves a purpose when man lacks the science to explain a mysterious and often threatening world. As man learns religion becomes superfluous and finally ridiculous.
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CPT (Join to see)
CSM Michael Salfai - Thank you for your input, CSM. If those brilliant and highly original thinkers I mentioned were products of their time, I suppose you and I must be as well. I'm sure you'll understand that I reject your summary judgement of religious faith (and by extension the billions of faithful) as "superfluous and ridiculous", but I appreciate your input nonetheless.
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CPT Jack Durish
CSM Michael Salfai - Allow me to suggest that you follow the latest news from the James Webb Space Telescope from which we are learning that many theories were treated as "absolutes," are now debunked. When I compare religion and science I can easily see a similarity in the manner in which those who abuse science are identical to those who abuse religion. They are both proselytizing when in actuality merely expressing opinions.
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Suspended Profile
There is tension where there are overlapping factual claims, but they aren't inherently or always in conflict. Science, for example, has nothing to say about the nature of gods or souls, i.e., whether they exist or not, what properties they'd have if they did exist, etc.. Organized religions, by contrast, often insist on having scriptural accounts concerning the natural world treated as fact, even when abundant scientific evidence exists to the contrary. But this isn't always the case.
Some believing scientists - Kenneth Miller and Francis Collins come to mind, as well as the late Theodosius Dobzhanski, who said "Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution,"- see no conflict. And the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) makes it quite clear on its website that science and religion need not conflict.
Of course, Intelligent Design is actually pseudoscience. ID proponents and institutions like the Discovery Institute have yet to offer data to support their claims, relying instead on assertions and superficially appealing claims without offering evidence to support them. Postulating irreducible complexity and couching claims in scientific jargon is all well and good, but if there isn't any way of testing the claims according to the scientific method, there's really nothing to study. And even design proponents freely admit to wanting a looser definition of science so their ideas appear to have merit. In any case, the point is that unresolved philosophical differences do not suggest equivalency with regard to actual science.
Some believing scientists - Kenneth Miller and Francis Collins come to mind, as well as the late Theodosius Dobzhanski, who said "Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution,"- see no conflict. And the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) makes it quite clear on its website that science and religion need not conflict.
Of course, Intelligent Design is actually pseudoscience. ID proponents and institutions like the Discovery Institute have yet to offer data to support their claims, relying instead on assertions and superficially appealing claims without offering evidence to support them. Postulating irreducible complexity and couching claims in scientific jargon is all well and good, but if there isn't any way of testing the claims according to the scientific method, there's really nothing to study. And even design proponents freely admit to wanting a looser definition of science so their ideas appear to have merit. In any case, the point is that unresolved philosophical differences do not suggest equivalency with regard to actual science.
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