Posted on Sep 14, 2015
Do we need more ethics training? And do we need to evaluate its effectiveness?
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Link to the GAO findings: http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-15-711 and a link to the MOAA article: http://www.moaa.org/Content/Take-Action/Top-Issues/Currently-Serving/Military-Ethics-Called-Into-Question.aspx.
Ethics
Professional Development
Congress
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 5
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The major problem I've always seen with out "ethics training" has been one of approach.
We tend to approach it from a "bottom up" philosophy rather than incorporating a "top down" philosophy as well.
By that I mean we focus on the individual, and stress the importance of ethical behavior. That is essential. However, we never address the "leader's" or "manager's" duty not to place his people into ethical quandaries.
In essence, isn't putting someone into an ethical dilemma (situation) a risky behavior? Isn't it playing the odds over the long run. Shouldn't we train our leaders/managers to avoid this behavior, and reduce said risk, in addition to teaching ethics to the individuals themselves?
We tend to approach it from a "bottom up" philosophy rather than incorporating a "top down" philosophy as well.
By that I mean we focus on the individual, and stress the importance of ethical behavior. That is essential. However, we never address the "leader's" or "manager's" duty not to place his people into ethical quandaries.
In essence, isn't putting someone into an ethical dilemma (situation) a risky behavior? Isn't it playing the odds over the long run. Shouldn't we train our leaders/managers to avoid this behavior, and reduce said risk, in addition to teaching ethics to the individuals themselves?
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
COL Ted Mc Nod. That's a case of 100% accountability. Anything that goes missing will instantly become his fault, because he's responsible for it ALL! Anything extra doesn't help him.
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COL Ted Mc
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS Sergeant; Yep. And if you want to see someone really pay attention to how other people follow security protocols just make sure that that person knows that they are going to be blamed for any breach regardless of who commits it.
The British parliament used to have this thing called "Ministerial Responsibility" where the person in charge had to carry the can for every screw up that those under them made. It actually worked.
The British parliament used to have this thing called "Ministerial Responsibility" where the person in charge had to carry the can for every screw up that those under them made. It actually worked.
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COL Ted Mc
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - Sergeant; True, and an incredibly difficult one to prove.
I much prefer "no paper sorting-out" (especially for incidents early on in careers which have the possibility to blight a person's career if "officially" dealt with).
There is, of course, a limit to how many times someone can make the same type of mistake without OFFICIAL consequences (and their record of being "counseled" regarding them DOES form a part of the official record from them on [as well as impacting the consequences of the "deed of the day"]).
I much prefer "no paper sorting-out" (especially for incidents early on in careers which have the possibility to blight a person's career if "officially" dealt with).
There is, of course, a limit to how many times someone can make the same type of mistake without OFFICIAL consequences (and their record of being "counseled" regarding them DOES form a part of the official record from them on [as well as impacting the consequences of the "deed of the day"]).
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Well I have read a couple of the comments here and agree with most. You can't bust the Staff Sergeant for sleeping with a lower enlisted female, or visa versa, and give the book to him, loss of rank and bad conduct ........... whatever and then the 4 star get off with retirement and all of their benefits and a slap on the wrist and thank you for your service. If we are going to teach the ethics and ENFORCE them it should be the same at all RANK level. If the officer in the National guard used to be enlisted and he or she is in a commented relationship and is promoted to the officer and they get busted and relieved of duty and the enlisted busted down. Then why does the Field grade or general staff not! Just a double standard. Everyone should be treated the same regardless of the rank. The regs are clear. UCMJ is clear. Unless there is a different set of rules for one and not the other.
I think that yes, we as the lower enlisted need the class but to what extent. We already have so many power points that we have to do through out the year that it is ridiculous. why cant the leaders have the training and then teach there Joe's? Don't get me wrong I DON"T want more classes to do that we already have but damn it it is time we enforce the standard and quit all of this PC crap and just do it. So little johnny gets his feel bads hurt. I can remember getting the crap smoked out of me when I screwed up! I learned not to do it again. Paper to some doesn't mean crap! its just paper, cool is that all I'm getting OK! Lets do paper. Next day same attitude, if not worse, and same thing is wrong!
Sorry, not meant as a rant or personal attack to anyone.
I think that yes, we as the lower enlisted need the class but to what extent. We already have so many power points that we have to do through out the year that it is ridiculous. why cant the leaders have the training and then teach there Joe's? Don't get me wrong I DON"T want more classes to do that we already have but damn it it is time we enforce the standard and quit all of this PC crap and just do it. So little johnny gets his feel bads hurt. I can remember getting the crap smoked out of me when I screwed up! I learned not to do it again. Paper to some doesn't mean crap! its just paper, cool is that all I'm getting OK! Lets do paper. Next day same attitude, if not worse, and same thing is wrong!
Sorry, not meant as a rant or personal attack to anyone.
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COL Ted Mc
SGT Bryon Sergent - Sergeant; Your point is 100% valid. If the same situation is handled differently simply because of the ranks of the people involved then you are in a state of "moral/ethical hypocrisy" and that doesn't do anyone any good whatsoever.
If "the troops" know that they are going to be slammed for something that "the pointy hats" can do with impunity, then the very core of discipline starts to dissolve. There is absolutely no difference between an "O - X" using their position to extract sexual services (or anything else) from an "O - X-3" than there is from an "E - X" using their position to extract sexual services (or anything else) from an "E - X-3".
If "the troops" know that they are going to be slammed for something that "the pointy hats" can do with impunity, then the very core of discipline starts to dissolve. There is absolutely no difference between an "O - X" using their position to extract sexual services (or anything else) from an "O - X-3" than there is from an "E - X" using their position to extract sexual services (or anything else) from an "E - X-3".
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Ethics are the foundation of any leader. But sometimes common senses needs to be used
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