Hazing
SSG Small,
I agree that we all have varied experiences and deployments, I also think that many of us have had different learning curves throughout our careers as well, I have talked with SGT Riser extensively and we have understood that we had misunderstood what each other was trying to get across in a limited ability forum discussion. Believe me, we all know SF and Infantry side of the house are completely different types of environments compared to many standard garrison type MOSs, but all serve a purpose and fulfill the needs of the Army, so we must all learn to adapt to each others abilities and job contributions and accept them for what they give to us all in the big picture of our service to country.
I agree the discussion went into far left field for what the original topic was based on, but we all have gotten it back to center where it belongs, so enjoy your weekend and have a great week.
WOW all I can say is wow to this whole thread, are the problems in ALL ranks in the Army. Yes, some are due to generations, some are due to untouchable mentality and some are due to changes in how we rais young NCO's and LT's.
I have heard many things from the old guard, when I was in BNCOC after two deployments and one already planned, the instructors hiding in the school house were crying that branch told them to get ready to swap with units that have already seen 2-3 rotations. Oh they were yelling the army can't do that to me not at 20 years. I was absolutly pissed that after their time of taking the army for years of no war, when the army says to fulfill their duty they want to run. But at the same time there are young soldiers that are still joining during war that are surprised when they have to deploy. Next thing you know they go from I will join an army at war to "I'm a conscientious objector" so the this generatiion that joined knowing they were in war thought i'll be good.
I think some of the problems we will see are due to these war babies, not having been in garrison will bring about a new army life that they don't know and may not know how to deal with. Back to mowing grass on base, standing guard at gates, KP. Reintroducing the lines of devision between E4 and E5, E5's and Sr NCO's, Jr enlisted and all officers. 12 years of war have made this buddy feeling that never should have been blurred. No before anyone jumps on me, this is not EVERY unit, but far to many.
SFC Baber I will be joining you as soon as I reach my 20 - 24. When you can't make a simple correction at any base, specificly AIT bases without JAG cominc down on you things have cone wrong. There should be corrective action NJP, maybe physical fitness, or heck some good poking of fun at a mistake. Not hazing which is just for the groups self satisfaction. Soldier looses a key, he carries the bolt cutters extended to cut his lock. He may feel a little embarased but is he hurt, really? Some corrections shouldn't need 4856.
This turned out longer than I planned.
Chief,
I agree with you whole heartedly, that was my original point, when we came up it wasn't hazing it was discipline and corrective training, but the PC police have taken small things and blown them out of proportion and labeled it as hazing, now I will be the 1st to admit, some people have taken it to a new level which is over the top, but probably 95% of it was just what it stated corrective training or instilling discipline. We as a military whole have created the environment of the thinking of some of the new breed of NCOs and officers that are afraid to do what they know is right because they don't want "to catch a case," but you then get the NCOs that say I am wrong and am being disrespectful to them by marginalizing their contributions, but they are so bent on claiming that they failed to even pay attention what I said as a whole, that is another part of what proves what I stated, they are so concerned about "what about me," they failed to understand the big picture of it all and the problems that have been caused and the issues we now have that is deteriorating our forces from being overly PC on every little thing. Yes change is good sometimes to correct a major error or problem, but the continuous nitpicking every little individual wish of some small percentage group of PC complaint has diminished what the military's ultimate mission is and was, defend the country and our allies, but we have become to concerned about who's feelings we have hurt because we made them do corrective training of physical activity or pulling barracks guard to correct an infraction on their part.
After 14 years of dual wars, we have to put aside all the PC BS and get back to basics and enforce standards that no one really had any problems with before 9/11 or during the previous decade, but since returning from these 2 wars back to garrison duties, we have all the young NCOs and officers that think we are not being fair to them or the Soldiers by making them enforce what has always been there, but was allowed to get lax because we were fighting 2 wars and they didn't want the extra stress of enforcing the standards while deployed. While it has always been ok to be friendly with your subordinates, it doesn't make for conducive or productive enforcement if you are friends with them or your seniors, it creates the environment where issues will arise and feelings will be hurt when you are made to do something that is right and not what you want, the standards, until we get away from that mentality it is only going to continue and progressively get worse before it gets better and stronger for everyone serving.
SFC
Though this is off the corrections/hazing, some of us have been talking standards and regs. Yes there is a new 670-1, and in that there are very small changes, but the bulk of what is getting so many bent out of shape is really just shedding a light on what has been ignored. STANDARDS. Now I hate the hands pocket discussion, and I swear this is the first time it was in the black and white. But the majority of what they are taling about are standards no one enforced over the last 10 years, stylish or parade pretty hair do's, tattoos, wearing your uniform right or wrong. I have seen everything from soldiers without their top's on while outside of their vehicle pumping gas, a soldier in cook whites sagging enough to see the white T under his top above his pants, mixing Pt and ACU's anytime other than PT. The hardest thing is to walk over and tell them to straighten up. It sucks but that is the right thing. We shouldn't need the SGM patrols once a year (JBLM) to correct soldiers, dam when I came up if you saw SGM you were walking out a little lighter on the collar. Now the young 5-6's drive SGM's to have to make corrections.
Before anyone yells Not all 5-6's are slacking.
For anyone interested pick up that green NCO guide from the military clothing, or Be Know Do form the FM library. If you can go from front to back and not get knots in your gut then you are better than anyone else. But everyone has an area they can improve, that guide will help you. Be the NCO's the army needs right now and the soldiers deserve, not friends, mentors and leaders.
This is my personal opinion...I've only been in 5 1/2 years, but in that time I've seen a great change in the way we handle corrective action. In my unit you CANNOT make a Soldier do a physical activity as corrective action. You have to counsel him and that's it.
No wonder our Soldier's are so weak and disrespectful. They have nothing to fear but a piece of paper that they initial, sign, and date.
Soldier's don't remember pieces of paper, they remember pain. Just like when we were in basic training we don't remember that inital counseling, we remember the shark attack, or the smoke session with pro masks on because someone's shoes were out of line. Now if you do that you are getting an Article 15 and kicked out for hazing.
8 count push ups. GO.
I posted the paragraph of 7-22 that addresses physical activity as corrective actions all over my Troop AO. Soldiers and NCOs are all aware of exactly what they can do. There are 8 authorized exercises that 7-22 gives you as a tool. Five repetitions per infraction. Take care to avoid overuse of physical activity as to avoid injury.
The previous posts are right about watching your ass these days. I'm currently awaiting my PCS to Fort Rucker for WOCS and am not risking anything.
Use the 5 reps as a "yank the leash" approach. It works.
Most of the time, a Soldier doesn't need to be physically exhausted before they will change their attitude. Sometimes "yanking the leash" to give a reminder of who's in charge is enough. Some soldiers are embarrassed to get smoked. It can be useful, when not overused.
I had a Soldier quote the 5-rep rule to me. I told him he was absolutely right...and then began his corrective training with the 8-count push-up, and then proceeded from there. The whole time I was providing his training, I was congratulating him on his knowledge of the regs. He got the hint.
What if the individual is better at shooting, than being a garrison soldier?
I have seen this in my time.
SSG, I have seen this many times as well. While thats not all and all a bad thing, the Army is about the "total Soldier concept". If the one thing a Soldier is great at is marksmanship, then it is our job as leaders and NCO's to shape that Soldier into a "total Soldier". Thats is why we are supposed to teach, train, and mentor so that Soldiers don't have a "Garrison" or "Deployed" mindset. With that being said, I am a realist. I understand that there are people out there who just can't conform to either of those enviroments. That person may be the most outstanding person in Garrison, but put them in a warzone and they are lost, and vise versa.
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