Posted on Mar 14, 2016
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Any infantryman or engineer knows any obstacle is just a delay. Short of minefields and OP's with shoot-to-kill orders, can the borders be sealed within a reasonable budget. How would you do it?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 46
Sealed? NO
More difficult YES.
Then address the real issue.. They flock here because they are coddled and accepted once on the ground. Make Hiring them a felony and ENFORCE the law....at the Company LEADERSHIP level, not the manager or HR.
Deport them immediately.. like as in within 24 hours of a immigration court appearance that proves they are not here legally.
Capture, deport and require criminal action against the mules that bring in the illegals from the host country. Track the legal action, and a mule captured and returned that is not criminally charged in the home country .. we STOP immediately all foreign aid to that country.... Recall as debt owed all monies paid to that country. List their representatives in the US as persona non grata, deport, close the embassy if they have one until all the deported criminals are charged, and or funds returned. Any national in that host country that has assets in the US, seize those assists as partial Host country debt repayment notifying the former assets owner and country they the former assets owner should seek remediation and reimbursement from their country leadership.
More difficult YES.
Then address the real issue.. They flock here because they are coddled and accepted once on the ground. Make Hiring them a felony and ENFORCE the law....at the Company LEADERSHIP level, not the manager or HR.
Deport them immediately.. like as in within 24 hours of a immigration court appearance that proves they are not here legally.
Capture, deport and require criminal action against the mules that bring in the illegals from the host country. Track the legal action, and a mule captured and returned that is not criminally charged in the home country .. we STOP immediately all foreign aid to that country.... Recall as debt owed all monies paid to that country. List their representatives in the US as persona non grata, deport, close the embassy if they have one until all the deported criminals are charged, and or funds returned. Any national in that host country that has assets in the US, seize those assists as partial Host country debt repayment notifying the former assets owner and country they the former assets owner should seek remediation and reimbursement from their country leadership.
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LCpl William Perry
PO2 Allender, Point well taken. The sensor idea was a concept for replacing the wall concept. I would think you would need assit after the sensor detection such as drone visual. Like the trail we have a large area of border to cover.
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MSG James Crowell
okay you do. it say the USA and Canadian.that is over 3,500 miles long so how do you watch it with OP. have troops on Guard duty out there when winter comes and it is -40 below. yea you see the problem now and the USA Mexico. yea not as long as the Canadian one but the heat will be fun also and Just to do the Canadian one you will need the combine US force in man power that we had in the WORLD WAR 2 AND MORE ( that is over 16,000,000 ) just to go from Maine to Washington state now lets add going from California to Texas you will need another 5,000,000 to watch it so you will need in the military over 21 million just to watch the border and will do any of you know a Roman Gen called Hadrains wall he thought the same thing that Mr Trump thinks and look how that ended
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SGM Erik Marquez
MSG James Crowell - Please explain how you came to your perceived numbers of manpower required. You must have significant more experience than I at running an OP, a security position, or a screen along vast distances...as I had as Infantrymen, a company, BN, BDE and Div level planner, a Senior leader.. So please, tell us how you came to your manpower numbers, and why you discounted the many force multiplies technology has given us that could significantly reduce on the ground manpower. As well as your mission analysis and MDMP considerations and results that led you to believe every border mile needed a human picket to effectively increase border security
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MSG James Crowell
it came from study the Art of War a book that was written over a 1,000 years ago and i study that in Fort Huachuca AZ were i was station and work in the J-2 OPS part of a Core leave to make sure no one comes across the land you will have to have man station along the border of north and south just like they did in West Germany with the Wall and they had to have 14 Dive along that border and that is a lot smaller then the ones were are talking about are we and are we going to give the order to shoot to kill a child or a woman who has no weapon on her and that order even if it came from POTUS will be a unlawful order no mater what and by treaty we have any one from that pvt who dose fire that round to the one who gave that order can be charge with a war crime with the treaty and a treaty over ride any laws other wise that is why they have to be pass by the US Senate unless the US Senate change that treaty with that Nation that pvt and any one who didn't stop that person or gave that order ican be charge with a war crime
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The DoD has studied and planned against this problem for decades. It can be done. I was involved in a study in the 1980s. Our main concern was the movement of drugs, not people, across the southern border. We worked with the three Departments to determine the forces necessary to seal the Southern border. I don't remember the exact numbers, which may have been classified, but it takes a few Army Divisions, several Air Force squadrons, a fleet of Navy ships, and Coast Guard ships to do the job. It's not cheap. The rules of engagement get interesting because of restriction on using Active Duty military to enforce law. However, that problem can be overcome with an act of Congress--possibly harder to get than the funding for the force.
Technology that's come along since the 1980s will make enforcing the air and ocean approaches to the Southern coastline easier and more efficient. The number of Navy and Coast Guard ships and Air Force aircraft would be fewer now than in the 1980s. Let's face it, we know what a secure land border looks like. It looks like the Berlin Wall. We need the courage to admit we need the wall, the wire, the clear zones, the towers, and other physical security infrastructure. Add the technological enhancements including video cameras, motion sensors, listening devices, ground penetrating radar, and large and small drones and it decreases the number of soldiers or border guards necessary to prevent penetration compared to our 1980s estimate.
The Air Component Commander and Sea Component Commander need authorities to stop or shoot down/sink aircraft and watercraft believed to be moving to invade (important word) the United States. The Land Component Commander will need authority to use deadly force against people invading the US across the Mexican border. These are tough authorities to get and even more difficult to exercise, but I trust our senior military commanders to use appropriate force and good judgement to complete the mission.
Finally, we have to remain committed to the mission for decades. Every time we introduce a new defensive technology, tactic, or technique, those trying to penetrate the border (invade the US) will develop a courter. There's a lot of money in smuggling drugs and people. The criminals and terrorists can buy or steal the best technology and innovative planners. We need to develop and keep the ability to get ahead of the criminals and terrorists and block their moves before they happen. This takes good intelligence and good science. In the end we can out-spend the bad guys like we did the USSR during the Cold War and have a secure border and secure nation.
BTW, I'm not ignoring the East and West Coasts and Northern Border. Our 1980s study didn't address these areas in detail. Many of the principles I mentioned above would need to be applied to the other borders as the threat dictated. Certainly the West Coast will need security to prevent criminals and terrorists from end running the Southern Border defenses. The defense of the East Coast is equally important because blocking off access through the Gulf of Mexico may force the criminals and terrorists the move up the East Coast to gain access to the US. Fortunately, we have a strong ally on our Northern Border. We probably don't want to build a fortress-type land border between us and Canada. We need to work with Canada to prevent the criminals and terrorists from entering their country in the first place.
Technology that's come along since the 1980s will make enforcing the air and ocean approaches to the Southern coastline easier and more efficient. The number of Navy and Coast Guard ships and Air Force aircraft would be fewer now than in the 1980s. Let's face it, we know what a secure land border looks like. It looks like the Berlin Wall. We need the courage to admit we need the wall, the wire, the clear zones, the towers, and other physical security infrastructure. Add the technological enhancements including video cameras, motion sensors, listening devices, ground penetrating radar, and large and small drones and it decreases the number of soldiers or border guards necessary to prevent penetration compared to our 1980s estimate.
The Air Component Commander and Sea Component Commander need authorities to stop or shoot down/sink aircraft and watercraft believed to be moving to invade (important word) the United States. The Land Component Commander will need authority to use deadly force against people invading the US across the Mexican border. These are tough authorities to get and even more difficult to exercise, but I trust our senior military commanders to use appropriate force and good judgement to complete the mission.
Finally, we have to remain committed to the mission for decades. Every time we introduce a new defensive technology, tactic, or technique, those trying to penetrate the border (invade the US) will develop a courter. There's a lot of money in smuggling drugs and people. The criminals and terrorists can buy or steal the best technology and innovative planners. We need to develop and keep the ability to get ahead of the criminals and terrorists and block their moves before they happen. This takes good intelligence and good science. In the end we can out-spend the bad guys like we did the USSR during the Cold War and have a secure border and secure nation.
BTW, I'm not ignoring the East and West Coasts and Northern Border. Our 1980s study didn't address these areas in detail. Many of the principles I mentioned above would need to be applied to the other borders as the threat dictated. Certainly the West Coast will need security to prevent criminals and terrorists from end running the Southern Border defenses. The defense of the East Coast is equally important because blocking off access through the Gulf of Mexico may force the criminals and terrorists the move up the East Coast to gain access to the US. Fortunately, we have a strong ally on our Northern Border. We probably don't want to build a fortress-type land border between us and Canada. We need to work with Canada to prevent the criminals and terrorists from entering their country in the first place.
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SSG Bill Tallen
Research I did at the Naval War College in 2007 indicates that there is much more clarity and freedom of action on using Title 10 (active duty military) forces now than in past decades. Executive branch action invoking national security against potential foreign threats is all that is needed to proceed. Having US Marshals, ICE, or other federal or state LEO available to conduct or oversee booking, detention, and processing would be a practical necessity, but at the point of contact Title 10 forces can do the job. And ARNG under Title 32 state authority have even less restriction on their freedom to act; federal funding would probably be required to keep a federally coordinated, state-run effort going, but that avenue is one worth looking at. Still massive expensive, and requires substantial manpower, as LTC Coe points out - but the legal issues are not show stoppers.
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Lt Col Jim Coe
Glad to hear the legal issues may not be as large as we thought in 1988. There are lots of other things the US needs to do to make the nation less attractive to illegal immigrants. We should hold a Constitutional Convention (Article V) to amend the Constitution to better define a "natural born" citizen as one who is born in the US or its territories and possessions of at least one parent who is a US citizen (add language to cover people born outside of the US one of whose parents is a US citizen when the absence is due to employment with the US government or humanitarian service (aid workers, missionaries, etc.). Also, clearly state that the Constitutional provisions and rights apply ONLY to the citizens of the US; allow Congress to pass such laws as necessary to define the limited rights of non-citizens within the US. Finally, prohibit the expenditure federal resources of any type on people who are not citizens except a minimum to preserve life in the case of dire medical emergency. After that, enforce all existing laws controlling employment of non-citizens and prohibiting employment of illegal aliens. Defund such stupid ideas as "sanctuary cities." Deport criminal illegal aliens in a very public way. Assist non-criminal illegal aliens who wish to return to their country of origin with a one-way ticket out of the US.
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A1C Gerald Jessup
you can get around the military restrictions by using state guard units and coast guard
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MSG James Crowell
think of that Gen in the Roman that was called Hardrains he made a wall how did that work for Rome i do remember not to good
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Place our forces about 2-5 miles back on our side of the border. Then declare the zone from the border to where friendly forces are, to be a 24x7 live fire/bombing range. Post signs at regular intervals explaining such, and that entry into this zone will likely result in death and/or dismemberment. It's a win-win-- the border is patrolled and our forces get a huge new free-fire and bombing range.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
Maj John Bell - But you're not firing upon them, you're on a bombing range, and you've got targets place there to aim at. Free fire zone is open 24hrs a day so intruders don't know the schedule. Any normal thinking person knows you don't walk into a live fire/bombing range.
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Sgt Harlin Seritt
SSG Unger you are freaking crazy! Almost spit out my coffee. I have to assume you're only half serious but great post!
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Sgt Harlin Seritt - I have to admit, this idea came from a USMC Sniper Instructor I learned to shoot from, back in the very early 80s. So it's not my idea, just one that I thought was kind of innovative.
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