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From "The Independent"
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/islamic-history-is-full-of-free-thinkers--but-recent-attempts-to-suppress-critical-thought-are-verging-on-the-absurd-9993777.html?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=*Democracy%20Lab&utm_campaign=Democracy%20Lab%20Weekly%20Brief%2C%20Jan.%2026%2C%202015
Islamic history is full of free thinkers - but recent attempts to suppress critical thought are verging on the absurd
"This has nothing to do with Islam," say the imams. "These callous and fanatic murders have nothing to do with us," say the mullahs. "Islam means peace," say the worshippers. These disclaimers, and variations on them, have been repeated countless times by Muslim commentators since the Charlie Hebdo killings. They are designed to distance people from guilt by association with those who kill and maim in the name of Islam.
But what about the sentence recently handed down to the (mildly) liberal blogger Raif Badawi in the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia? Ten years in jail, a massive fine, 1,000 lashes over 20 weeks (currently suspended because the first 50 lashes have rendered him "medically unfit")? Does this have "nothing to do with Islam"? Does the hashtag "Je suis un couteau" – referring to this week's stabbing of 11 Israelis on a bus – have "nothing to do with Islam"? Not to mention the 10 Christians killed during Charlie protests in Niger last week, or the ongoing depredations of al-Qaeda, Isis, Boko Haram, the Taliban and the Laskar Jihad of Indonesia?
The psychotic followers of these organisations all think that they are Muslims, and their Islam is based on beliefs that millions who subscribe to Wahhabism, the Saudi version of the religion – and its kin, Salafism – accept as essential ingredients of their faith. For example, that sharia, or Islamic law, is divinely ordained and immutable; that apostates and blasphemers should be killed; that women should be shrouded and confined to four walls and that men are their guardians.
This is a widespread version of Islam, made more so by modern communications; increasingly gaining followers in Europe, it can be, and is, used to justify all manner of atrocities. Yet this is an Islam of manufactured dogma which relies on neither the Koran nor the example of the Prophet Mohamed.
So where do these beliefs come from? From today's extremist leaders, of course. But also, historically, from caliphs and clerics who realised that religion could perform a very useful function: it could keep the masses in their place and ensure that power remained in the hands of a select few.
[EDITORIAL COMMENT:- It gets even more interesting once you consider the last twenty words of the C&P on a historical basis. Heck, it could even apply to "Open Mouth" radio.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/islamic-history-is-full-of-free-thinkers--but-recent-attempts-to-suppress-critical-thought-are-verging-on-the-absurd-9993777.html?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=*Democracy%20Lab&utm_campaign=Democracy%20Lab%20Weekly%20Brief%2C%20Jan.%2026%2C%202015
Islamic history is full of free thinkers - but recent attempts to suppress critical thought are verging on the absurd
"This has nothing to do with Islam," say the imams. "These callous and fanatic murders have nothing to do with us," say the mullahs. "Islam means peace," say the worshippers. These disclaimers, and variations on them, have been repeated countless times by Muslim commentators since the Charlie Hebdo killings. They are designed to distance people from guilt by association with those who kill and maim in the name of Islam.
But what about the sentence recently handed down to the (mildly) liberal blogger Raif Badawi in the Islamic state of Saudi Arabia? Ten years in jail, a massive fine, 1,000 lashes over 20 weeks (currently suspended because the first 50 lashes have rendered him "medically unfit")? Does this have "nothing to do with Islam"? Does the hashtag "Je suis un couteau" – referring to this week's stabbing of 11 Israelis on a bus – have "nothing to do with Islam"? Not to mention the 10 Christians killed during Charlie protests in Niger last week, or the ongoing depredations of al-Qaeda, Isis, Boko Haram, the Taliban and the Laskar Jihad of Indonesia?
The psychotic followers of these organisations all think that they are Muslims, and their Islam is based on beliefs that millions who subscribe to Wahhabism, the Saudi version of the religion – and its kin, Salafism – accept as essential ingredients of their faith. For example, that sharia, or Islamic law, is divinely ordained and immutable; that apostates and blasphemers should be killed; that women should be shrouded and confined to four walls and that men are their guardians.
This is a widespread version of Islam, made more so by modern communications; increasingly gaining followers in Europe, it can be, and is, used to justify all manner of atrocities. Yet this is an Islam of manufactured dogma which relies on neither the Koran nor the example of the Prophet Mohamed.
So where do these beliefs come from? From today's extremist leaders, of course. But also, historically, from caliphs and clerics who realised that religion could perform a very useful function: it could keep the masses in their place and ensure that power remained in the hands of a select few.
[EDITORIAL COMMENT:- It gets even more interesting once you consider the last twenty words of the C&P on a historical basis. Heck, it could even apply to "Open Mouth" radio.
Islam
Terrorism
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 30
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If they're claiming that they do what they do in the name of Islam, then in my book they are Islamic terrorists.
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COL Ted Mc
CW5 (Join to see) Mr. Montgomery; The problem (as I see it) is that [EWAG here] the vast majority are unable to keep the distinction between "Islamic Terrorist" and "Muslim" clear and that the only way to try and head off calls for mass slaughter simply on the basis of religion (and without regard to what the person has done) is to make a SHARP distinction between "murderous sociopaths who are justifying their actions on their personal interpretation of Islam" and "Muslims"
I also agree with SSgt Kevin Chavez that we have to stop playing down the mindless violence aspect of the terrorists' behaviour (by concentrating on their religion) AND also stop "glorifying" mindless violence (even if it means the elimination of better than half of all TV programs and movies. [Unfortunately that would also mean the end of movies etc. that portrayed people like William Bonney as heroes and require that they be shown as the thugs and murderous thieves they were.]
I also agree with SSgt Kevin Chavez that we have to stop playing down the mindless violence aspect of the terrorists' behaviour (by concentrating on their religion) AND also stop "glorifying" mindless violence (even if it means the elimination of better than half of all TV programs and movies. [Unfortunately that would also mean the end of movies etc. that portrayed people like William Bonney as heroes and require that they be shown as the thugs and murderous thieves they were.]
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PO1 Joseph Glennon
Even though they *are* Terrorists in general, and Islamic Terrorists specifically; since they are following the example of their prophet, and the commands / dictates in the Koran - I'm satisfied just calling them Muslims or MTBs (Muslim True Believers).
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SFC William Farrell
They are terrorists, plain and simple. Does anyone really believe that Islam teaches them to wage terrorism against innocent civilians? Does Islam teach them to cut off the heads of civilians who are trying to help alleviate the suffering? Does Islam teach them to burn a man alive in a cage because he was a pilot who carried out bombing attacks on their fellow terrorists? I have not read the Koran and perhaps I should but from what I have heard, it does not teach that.
Please call it for what it is, terrorism, nothing else.
Please call it for what it is, terrorism, nothing else.
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If you have the word "Islamic" in the name of your group, or you claim to be doing what you're doing in the name of Islam, then you are an "Islamic terrorist."
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SFC Jeff L.
COL Ted Mc Ted, this is the last thing I have to say about it. You asked for opinions and I gave mine. If you're trying to convince everyone to your way of thinking, then this probably isn't the forum for that.
I think they're Islamic Terrorists, not because I want to legitimize them or for any other nonsensical reason you can come up with. I take them at their word. THEY are in a religious war with us. They identify THEMSELVES as Islamic this-or-that. Who am I to say they aren't? I call them what they call themselves, and that is "islamic".
As to Mormon or martian "terrorists" (I have yet to see either) if they identified themselves as the Militant Mormon Brigade Freedom Fighters of Utah, and ran around beheading people for not meeting their demands, then I suppose it would be appropriate to call them "mormon terrorists." But since there seems to be only ONE religion on the planet at this moment in history that is doing it, I'm afraid we have to say "Islamic Terrorists."
I think they're Islamic Terrorists, not because I want to legitimize them or for any other nonsensical reason you can come up with. I take them at their word. THEY are in a religious war with us. They identify THEMSELVES as Islamic this-or-that. Who am I to say they aren't? I call them what they call themselves, and that is "islamic".
As to Mormon or martian "terrorists" (I have yet to see either) if they identified themselves as the Militant Mormon Brigade Freedom Fighters of Utah, and ran around beheading people for not meeting their demands, then I suppose it would be appropriate to call them "mormon terrorists." But since there seems to be only ONE religion on the planet at this moment in history that is doing it, I'm afraid we have to say "Islamic Terrorists."
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LCDR (Join to see)
"The KKK is more of a political and social organization using religion to justify its crimes. Their intent was intimidation and suppression" -
I could be wrong, but I think you made the colonel's point for him.
I could be wrong, but I think you made the colonel's point for him.
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COL Ted Mc
LCDR (Join to see) - Lieutenant; Thank you. It's always "fun" to encourage someone to defeat themselves. (It also produces fewer casualties amongst "the friendlies".)
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SFC Jeff L.
LCDR (Join to see) Negative, and Ted well was aware of that. He was attempting to equate the KKK with ISIS. As noted in the quote you used they were a political and social organization first and foremost. The religious aspect was secondary. In the case of ISIS/IL they are primarily a religious organization. They do what they do to further their religion, or their interpretation thereof. The two groups are motivated by different things - religion vs race. In retrospect I suppose that is probably the more appropriate and relevant point to illustrate their differences. Defending your crime by cherry-picking selected verses from the Bible is not the same, in my opinion, as being a religious organization. The kkk isn't trying to make everyone Southern Baptist on threat of death or dismemberment.
Ted is an islamic apologist and PC practitioner plain and simple. His obfuscation tactics were apparent straight out of the gate. Rather than address his thread topic head-on he would rather deflect any rational point by by creating false equity between ISIS/IL and any other straw he could grasp at.
Ted is an islamic apologist and PC practitioner plain and simple. His obfuscation tactics were apparent straight out of the gate. Rather than address his thread topic head-on he would rather deflect any rational point by by creating false equity between ISIS/IL and any other straw he could grasp at.
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"This has nothing to do with Islam," say the imams. "These callous and fanatic murders have nothing to do with us," say the mullahs. "Islam means peace," say the worshippers. These disclaimers, and variations on them, have been repeated countless times by Muslim commentators since the Charlie Hebdo killings. They are designed to distance people from guilt by association with those who kill and maim in the name of Islam.
And Islam also has this thing called Taqiyya, where Muslims are encouraged to lie, and be like Allah, whom they revere as the 'Greatest of Deceivers'. So why would I believe anything the so-called moderates say? Other moderates, like PM Erdogan of Turkey insist that there is no such thing as moderate Islam. Erdogan says it is insulting to say there are moderate Muslims and according to him, "Islam is Islam!"
IF they commit random acts of terror, they are terrorists; IF they are commiting acts of violence to advance the cause of Islam (as ISIS claims to be doing), AND/OR IF they say "Allah Akbar!" (as Major Hassan did at Fort Hood), they're Islamic Terrorists. If they subsidize groups identified as Islamic Terror Groups, they are no different than the people they support who are pulling the triggers.
And Islam also has this thing called Taqiyya, where Muslims are encouraged to lie, and be like Allah, whom they revere as the 'Greatest of Deceivers'. So why would I believe anything the so-called moderates say? Other moderates, like PM Erdogan of Turkey insist that there is no such thing as moderate Islam. Erdogan says it is insulting to say there are moderate Muslims and according to him, "Islam is Islam!"
IF they commit random acts of terror, they are terrorists; IF they are commiting acts of violence to advance the cause of Islam (as ISIS claims to be doing), AND/OR IF they say "Allah Akbar!" (as Major Hassan did at Fort Hood), they're Islamic Terrorists. If they subsidize groups identified as Islamic Terror Groups, they are no different than the people they support who are pulling the triggers.
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COL Ted Mc
Capt Jeff S. Captain; Is your attitude similar to that of Mr. Bush when he was taking Saddam Hussein's denials of having "vast stockpiles of WMD" ad PROOF that he did have them?
If you tar those who are innocent with the brush of the guilty, does that do anything to assist the situation?
I am not denying that the terrorists profess to be Muslims and claim to be acting "in the name of Islam", but I do question the utility of whipping up hatred against over 1,500,000,000 people for the acts of a few.
Two quick questions, "What do you propose that the United States of America do about the Saudis and Pakistanis who have a lengthy history of supporting terrorism in the Middle East?" and "What do you propose that the government of the United States of America do about those 'American friendly' countries in Africa, Asia, and South America who have a lengthy history of internal terrorism (carried out by their own governments)?".
If you tar those who are innocent with the brush of the guilty, does that do anything to assist the situation?
I am not denying that the terrorists profess to be Muslims and claim to be acting "in the name of Islam", but I do question the utility of whipping up hatred against over 1,500,000,000 people for the acts of a few.
Two quick questions, "What do you propose that the United States of America do about the Saudis and Pakistanis who have a lengthy history of supporting terrorism in the Middle East?" and "What do you propose that the government of the United States of America do about those 'American friendly' countries in Africa, Asia, and South America who have a lengthy history of internal terrorism (carried out by their own governments)?".
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Capt Jeff S.
Saddam did have WMD. He destroyed some of it, and some of it went to Syria, where his Baath Party was headquartered. If Iraq didn't have WMD, then what did these Kurds die from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack
The WORLD needs to take a stand against radical Islam. Consider Turkey, a so-called "moderate" / secular Islamic country. It's popularly elected PM Erdogan, whom the people demonstrated against for not representing their interests, stated that the term moderate Muslim was ugly and offensive and that "Islam is Islam."
If Islam is Islam, then the entire so-called religion is NOT peaceful and DOES NOT COEXIST, because it is wholly incompatible with ANY OTHER religion or form of gov't. It is a political system that has components of religion, as well as a Sharia judicial system that is at odds with our own system of justice.
So let's do some math. If we have 1.5 billion muslims in the world and just .1% of them are radical... How many is that, that are actively at war with the West and trying to kill us? 1.5 million? Can we ignore that?
EVERYWHERE Islam is you have violence and trouble. We do NOT need that here nor do we want it. I have a simple solution and it isn't PC:
BAN ISLAM.
Is that so hard to understand seeing as in just about every Muslim country there is effectively a ban on everything BUT ISLAM? We would simply be applying their own rules to them. If they whine about it, I'd tell them, when Christians can build a cathedral in Mecca and worship freely, you are welcome back here.
So if you want to be Muslim, you are free to leave to go to any one other country that accepts Islam. But while you are here, you aren't going to practice Islam. You aren't going to wear the Hijab. You aren't going to have mosques, training camps, or websites promoting your false religion. I'd seize all bank accounts belonging to CAIR and these other so called peaceful groups that have ties to terrorism. If they are found to be using the social media to advance the cause of Islam, I'd put a block on their websites, take away their citizenship and deport them. What? Isn't that against the First Amendment? Not when the group is at war with our society. Free speech comes with an obligation to be civil and not infringe upon the rights of others to their own pursuit of happiness. There would be a lot of griping and grumbling but in the end, we wouldn't be dealing with their mess here. The rest of the world would be cheering us and following suit. Europe needs to regain control of its cities and this assault on Western values needs to be stopped.
Islam doesn't recognize the sovereignty of our laws. The only thing it respects is strength so we will negotiate on our terms from a position of strength in dealing with Islam. And if Islam can't abide by OUR rules, it can't be tolerated here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_chemical_attack
The WORLD needs to take a stand against radical Islam. Consider Turkey, a so-called "moderate" / secular Islamic country. It's popularly elected PM Erdogan, whom the people demonstrated against for not representing their interests, stated that the term moderate Muslim was ugly and offensive and that "Islam is Islam."
If Islam is Islam, then the entire so-called religion is NOT peaceful and DOES NOT COEXIST, because it is wholly incompatible with ANY OTHER religion or form of gov't. It is a political system that has components of religion, as well as a Sharia judicial system that is at odds with our own system of justice.
So let's do some math. If we have 1.5 billion muslims in the world and just .1% of them are radical... How many is that, that are actively at war with the West and trying to kill us? 1.5 million? Can we ignore that?
EVERYWHERE Islam is you have violence and trouble. We do NOT need that here nor do we want it. I have a simple solution and it isn't PC:
BAN ISLAM.
Is that so hard to understand seeing as in just about every Muslim country there is effectively a ban on everything BUT ISLAM? We would simply be applying their own rules to them. If they whine about it, I'd tell them, when Christians can build a cathedral in Mecca and worship freely, you are welcome back here.
So if you want to be Muslim, you are free to leave to go to any one other country that accepts Islam. But while you are here, you aren't going to practice Islam. You aren't going to wear the Hijab. You aren't going to have mosques, training camps, or websites promoting your false religion. I'd seize all bank accounts belonging to CAIR and these other so called peaceful groups that have ties to terrorism. If they are found to be using the social media to advance the cause of Islam, I'd put a block on their websites, take away their citizenship and deport them. What? Isn't that against the First Amendment? Not when the group is at war with our society. Free speech comes with an obligation to be civil and not infringe upon the rights of others to their own pursuit of happiness. There would be a lot of griping and grumbling but in the end, we wouldn't be dealing with their mess here. The rest of the world would be cheering us and following suit. Europe needs to regain control of its cities and this assault on Western values needs to be stopped.
Islam doesn't recognize the sovereignty of our laws. The only thing it respects is strength so we will negotiate on our terms from a position of strength in dealing with Islam. And if Islam can't abide by OUR rules, it can't be tolerated here.
Halabja chemical attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Halabja chemical attack (Kurdish: Kîmyabarana Helebce کیمیابارانی ھەڵەبجە), also known as the Halabja Massacre or Bloody Friday,[1] was a genocidal massacre against the Kurdish people that took place on March 16, 1988, during the closing days of the Iran–Iraq War in the Kurdish city of Halabja in Southern Kurdistan. The attack was part of the Al-Anfal campaign in northern Iraq, as well as part of the Iraqi attempt to repel the Iranian...
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LCDR (Join to see)
"This has nothing to do with Islam," say the imams. "These callous and fanatic murders have nothing to do with us," say the mullahs. "Islam means peace," say the worshippers. These disclaimers, and variations on them, have been repeated countless times by Muslim commentators since the Charlie Hebdo killings. They are designed to distance people from guilt by association with those who kill and maim in the name of Islam.
- Do I need to make a run-down of all the Christians who have done the exact same thing, or can you just agree this is a hypocritical statement?
- Do I need to make a run-down of all the Christians who have done the exact same thing, or can you just agree this is a hypocritical statement?
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