Posted on Aug 26, 2014
Abandoning religion and the attached fallout...
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I am looking for advice and I want to keep this limited to myself and devoid of as much familial information as I can:
In my youth, naivety, ignorance - while in OSUT, I converted to the Mormon Church. I was devout to the church for a few years, I read everything I could get my hands on, scripture, non-cannon written by the Church's Apostles, and Prophets, etc. I read books on the deeper doctrines of the church and began to become very familiar with everything. In that process, I was developing a sincere doubt that any of this was true. I fooled myself time and time again and continued to perpetuate the cycle of belief. (I won't elaborate on this because it is embarrassing). I continued in this for nearly 10 months while in Iraq, until the fateful day that I had a vehicle accident while on a routine combat patrol.
Our platoon sergeant was just shot at by an insurgent in a bongo truck, which, immediately began to flee. Our patrol immediately began pursuit through open desert. We remained on line, spread approx. 250-300m apart and would begin to close the gap as the enemy approached terrain difficult to traverse. As I began my turn in to close the gap - the open desert floor at that speed is misleading and I couldn't see the 3-4 ft. deep, 4-5 ft. wide ditch we were headed right for at around 40-45 MPH. We crashed into that ditch.
We continued mission and my issues from this accident wouldn't arise until later in the week, the same week I was bound to go on R&R to be married to my fiance, now wife.
The accident knocked me around a lot. Dizziness, pressurized right ear, horrendous migraines, and nerve impulses traveling from my occipital lobe into the top of my scalp. I also had some memory difficulties, and still do on occasion. It also knocked my habits out of whack. I couldn't read my scriptures anymore, there was something abhorrent about doing it - I become completely disconnected with any of the "faith" I had. I couldn't read with faith any longer - I was able to read without being blinded by faith and those plot holes began to jump off the page at me. I began to prove to myself that my doubts were substantiated. Overtime, as I got more education and grew a couple of years, I knew without a shred of doubt that the LDS church was not true and that all religion was in the same boat (my personal opinion)... I began to compare scientific findings to their texts and found that it is one of the religions that was founded upon nothing but lies. At any rate, I held this inside me for many years - it festered within me - to be held to a moral and religious judicial code that I did not believe in, to be subjugated to religious leaders who I did not believe in nor did I believe they had any power - but two things kept it in place. 1) My records being in the church and 2) my wife. Removing the records will eliminate any residual form of control they think they have on me.
Those things continued to fester and multiplied the depression I had in my own life for the last 6-7 years since I left the Army... I knew that in order to be happy I had to find what I believed in and live it. I had to remove myself from the religion that I did not believe in. I had to be true to myself and my nature.
Now to the fallout... I informed my wife a week ago that I did not believe in the LDS church or God at all anymore. I am an atheist, and I have been for a long time - I was in the hiding to for fear of losing the life I knew at the time... She has already expressed doubts that our relationship will work out, whereas a week ago she was sincere in saying we could work it out. I think the real line was drawn when I informed her that I was going to remove my records from the Church - a form of self-excommunication, though not viewed officially as this. When I remove my records all of my covenants, etc. are erased and it is as if I was never in the church at all. This is VERY important to me and I am certain I want to have my records removed. There may be discussion that I should just distance myself from the church but leave my records in - that is not an option for me. I will not leave my name attached to what I know to be false. If you were a member of a team who wrote a combat plan and you were the one who saw the gaping hole - would you want your name on that document? - Same principle.
When a Mormon leaves the church, there is a lot of nonsense that goes on. First, the people will stop all communication with them - somehow if you are a non-believer - you are contagious. Second, it effectively eliminates family relations on her side (my side is mostly atheists). Third, the Church will aggressively attempt to mislead my wife that staying with me may lead to problems with her "eternal progression". Amongst many other things, these are the primary things I have learned of in my studies and observations.
I'm sorry for the whole spiel, but I needed to let the bigger picture be known.
Has anyone out there gone through something similar to this?
If so, what happened?
Have any of you succeeded in an atheist / religious marriage?
Any comments are welcome, barring proselytizing...
-----
This is not a plea for reconverting to religion, please to not proselytize to me in this thread.
I also want it to be known, I do feel bad for my wife that I flipped my views on religion- when we were married I was in a still believing in many ways... My true disbelief came within about 6 months after the accident. I feel bad she had to go through this, but I cannot live a lie any longer - because it led to my depression worsening to critical levels (I am fine now).
In my youth, naivety, ignorance - while in OSUT, I converted to the Mormon Church. I was devout to the church for a few years, I read everything I could get my hands on, scripture, non-cannon written by the Church's Apostles, and Prophets, etc. I read books on the deeper doctrines of the church and began to become very familiar with everything. In that process, I was developing a sincere doubt that any of this was true. I fooled myself time and time again and continued to perpetuate the cycle of belief. (I won't elaborate on this because it is embarrassing). I continued in this for nearly 10 months while in Iraq, until the fateful day that I had a vehicle accident while on a routine combat patrol.
Our platoon sergeant was just shot at by an insurgent in a bongo truck, which, immediately began to flee. Our patrol immediately began pursuit through open desert. We remained on line, spread approx. 250-300m apart and would begin to close the gap as the enemy approached terrain difficult to traverse. As I began my turn in to close the gap - the open desert floor at that speed is misleading and I couldn't see the 3-4 ft. deep, 4-5 ft. wide ditch we were headed right for at around 40-45 MPH. We crashed into that ditch.
We continued mission and my issues from this accident wouldn't arise until later in the week, the same week I was bound to go on R&R to be married to my fiance, now wife.
The accident knocked me around a lot. Dizziness, pressurized right ear, horrendous migraines, and nerve impulses traveling from my occipital lobe into the top of my scalp. I also had some memory difficulties, and still do on occasion. It also knocked my habits out of whack. I couldn't read my scriptures anymore, there was something abhorrent about doing it - I become completely disconnected with any of the "faith" I had. I couldn't read with faith any longer - I was able to read without being blinded by faith and those plot holes began to jump off the page at me. I began to prove to myself that my doubts were substantiated. Overtime, as I got more education and grew a couple of years, I knew without a shred of doubt that the LDS church was not true and that all religion was in the same boat (my personal opinion)... I began to compare scientific findings to their texts and found that it is one of the religions that was founded upon nothing but lies. At any rate, I held this inside me for many years - it festered within me - to be held to a moral and religious judicial code that I did not believe in, to be subjugated to religious leaders who I did not believe in nor did I believe they had any power - but two things kept it in place. 1) My records being in the church and 2) my wife. Removing the records will eliminate any residual form of control they think they have on me.
Those things continued to fester and multiplied the depression I had in my own life for the last 6-7 years since I left the Army... I knew that in order to be happy I had to find what I believed in and live it. I had to remove myself from the religion that I did not believe in. I had to be true to myself and my nature.
Now to the fallout... I informed my wife a week ago that I did not believe in the LDS church or God at all anymore. I am an atheist, and I have been for a long time - I was in the hiding to for fear of losing the life I knew at the time... She has already expressed doubts that our relationship will work out, whereas a week ago she was sincere in saying we could work it out. I think the real line was drawn when I informed her that I was going to remove my records from the Church - a form of self-excommunication, though not viewed officially as this. When I remove my records all of my covenants, etc. are erased and it is as if I was never in the church at all. This is VERY important to me and I am certain I want to have my records removed. There may be discussion that I should just distance myself from the church but leave my records in - that is not an option for me. I will not leave my name attached to what I know to be false. If you were a member of a team who wrote a combat plan and you were the one who saw the gaping hole - would you want your name on that document? - Same principle.
When a Mormon leaves the church, there is a lot of nonsense that goes on. First, the people will stop all communication with them - somehow if you are a non-believer - you are contagious. Second, it effectively eliminates family relations on her side (my side is mostly atheists). Third, the Church will aggressively attempt to mislead my wife that staying with me may lead to problems with her "eternal progression". Amongst many other things, these are the primary things I have learned of in my studies and observations.
I'm sorry for the whole spiel, but I needed to let the bigger picture be known.
Has anyone out there gone through something similar to this?
If so, what happened?
Have any of you succeeded in an atheist / religious marriage?
Any comments are welcome, barring proselytizing...
-----
This is not a plea for reconverting to religion, please to not proselytize to me in this thread.
I also want it to be known, I do feel bad for my wife that I flipped my views on religion- when we were married I was in a still believing in many ways... My true disbelief came within about 6 months after the accident. I feel bad she had to go through this, but I cannot live a lie any longer - because it led to my depression worsening to critical levels (I am fine now).
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As a fellow nonbeliever, I will give you a few pieces of advice:
First, about your wife...
1.) If you love her and want it to work, TELL HER. Don't beat around the bush; tell her that you are sorry you can't share the beliefs, but you are as committed to her as ever, and will try your best to make the relationship work.
2.) At the same time, tell her that if it won't work, she should be forthright about it. If she isn't willing to work on the relationship, you've done your part by giving her the chance. Remind her that you are fundamentally the same person you were a week earlier when you know she still loved you; she just knows something more about you now.
3.) Do not let her force you to compromise your new stance on religion. Your conscience is not her call, so don't subjugate it. Everything else about you is up for grabs, though.
4.) Also, do not -- I REPEAT, DO NOT -- expect that she will change to meet you where you are on religion. You have your conscience, she has hers, and she has as much rights to free choice in it as you have.
5.) Be prepared to spend a lot of time talking things out, and I do mean A LOT, if you stay together. Be aware, this could go on for a very long time, so don't expect these issues to be sorted out quickly.
Second, on your atheism itself...
6.) Try to never lie about your lack of religious faith. There is no shame in coming to your own conclusions about religion, and be willing to be open about that fact.
7.) Also try to feel comfortable with the idea of NOT always sharing it. Just because someone assumes you're religious doesn't mean you have to correct them, and you also don't need to volunteer that information. You likely have a lot of friends/family/community among the religious, and you don't need to make a show of coming out to all of them.
8.) Think carefully about controversial acts that may pit you against those you care about. It may be that getting struck off the rolls of your religion is the only way you'll feel free, but it's also possible that it could force a division between you and your family before the family has had the time to cope with your new stance, and alienate them in the process.
9.) Remember that although you may not respect the belief, you absolutely can respect the believer, and should endeavor to extend them that personal courtesy as long as they do no wrong to you. Showing people over time that your dispute with their religion is academic, and not personal, can go a long way toward preserving relationships. It also erodes the negative stereotypes about non-belief, and creates operating space for others coming out.
10.) Don't be so quick to label your atheism as a result of an accident. Yes, it's possible that the accident had something to do with it, but more often change is slow but just sort of *clicks* one day. Similarly, you may have been on that path for a while, and the accident provided the catalyst to help solidify the views.
11.) Seek community among others who don't believe, especially those who lost their belief. You will face at least some rejection from people you loved and trusted. Believe me, you will need some people to tell you what they went through, and to listen to you without judgment. I suggest either Secular Safe House (http://secularsafehouse.org/) or the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (http://militaryatheists.org/) as a start.
Lastly, good luck.
First, about your wife...
1.) If you love her and want it to work, TELL HER. Don't beat around the bush; tell her that you are sorry you can't share the beliefs, but you are as committed to her as ever, and will try your best to make the relationship work.
2.) At the same time, tell her that if it won't work, she should be forthright about it. If she isn't willing to work on the relationship, you've done your part by giving her the chance. Remind her that you are fundamentally the same person you were a week earlier when you know she still loved you; she just knows something more about you now.
3.) Do not let her force you to compromise your new stance on religion. Your conscience is not her call, so don't subjugate it. Everything else about you is up for grabs, though.
4.) Also, do not -- I REPEAT, DO NOT -- expect that she will change to meet you where you are on religion. You have your conscience, she has hers, and she has as much rights to free choice in it as you have.
5.) Be prepared to spend a lot of time talking things out, and I do mean A LOT, if you stay together. Be aware, this could go on for a very long time, so don't expect these issues to be sorted out quickly.
Second, on your atheism itself...
6.) Try to never lie about your lack of religious faith. There is no shame in coming to your own conclusions about religion, and be willing to be open about that fact.
7.) Also try to feel comfortable with the idea of NOT always sharing it. Just because someone assumes you're religious doesn't mean you have to correct them, and you also don't need to volunteer that information. You likely have a lot of friends/family/community among the religious, and you don't need to make a show of coming out to all of them.
8.) Think carefully about controversial acts that may pit you against those you care about. It may be that getting struck off the rolls of your religion is the only way you'll feel free, but it's also possible that it could force a division between you and your family before the family has had the time to cope with your new stance, and alienate them in the process.
9.) Remember that although you may not respect the belief, you absolutely can respect the believer, and should endeavor to extend them that personal courtesy as long as they do no wrong to you. Showing people over time that your dispute with their religion is academic, and not personal, can go a long way toward preserving relationships. It also erodes the negative stereotypes about non-belief, and creates operating space for others coming out.
10.) Don't be so quick to label your atheism as a result of an accident. Yes, it's possible that the accident had something to do with it, but more often change is slow but just sort of *clicks* one day. Similarly, you may have been on that path for a while, and the accident provided the catalyst to help solidify the views.
11.) Seek community among others who don't believe, especially those who lost their belief. You will face at least some rejection from people you loved and trusted. Believe me, you will need some people to tell you what they went through, and to listen to you without judgment. I suggest either Secular Safe House (http://secularsafehouse.org/) or the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (http://militaryatheists.org/) as a start.
Lastly, good luck.
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SPC (Join to see)
I will take the time to discuss with her in full, whether she intends on this to work out. I have been very open to discussing things and letting this run the proper course - but she still harbors faith that I will return. When I told her my records would be removed, that is where I noticed the new behavior.
I never thought that I also have a right to be given a truthful answer as to whether or not she wants to stay with me. I told her I wanted to work it out - I told her I wanted a life with her and I meant it. I will work on these things... thank you again, sir.
I never thought that I also have a right to be given a truthful answer as to whether or not she wants to stay with me. I told her I wanted to work it out - I told her I wanted a life with her and I meant it. I will work on these things... thank you again, sir.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see), I'd be interested to hear how things are going. Please consider posting an update.
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SPC (Join to see)
My wife and I talked.
It began with the typical rebounding of who is to "blame" for this. I laid a very emotional and passionate position of where I stand and what I want. She finally realized that I truly do want this to work out.
Her demeanor has changed, but other than that - I haven't had any reassurances that she will stay with me. I know for at least now, she intends on trying to make it work. She said that my behavior in the past few days was indicating that it wouldn't work out but my behavior hasn't changed at all... I was in a depressive episode and I was having TBI complications causing problems - I explained to her -thoroughly- that my behavior was directly related to my conditions and not as a result of our conversation. I also informed her that these things will continue until my treatments continue and some of them may never go away. (TBI is a terrible affliction). She finally saw me in my rawest of moments and that is when she apologized for her rigid stance. I think it dawned on her that just because I didn't believe in her church any longer didn't mean I was no longer the man she married and loved.
I am hopeful but cautious. I am prepared for the course to shift either way. The true test of this is when her religious leaders get a hold of her and start the talks of the significance of how this will affect her in her "eternal progression". That will be the real indicator - is whether or not she loves me above and beyond their aggressive pushes to get her away from me and into the arms of a "worthy Mormon man".
I sincerely appreciate your words and your follow-up, Maj. Jean.
It began with the typical rebounding of who is to "blame" for this. I laid a very emotional and passionate position of where I stand and what I want. She finally realized that I truly do want this to work out.
Her demeanor has changed, but other than that - I haven't had any reassurances that she will stay with me. I know for at least now, she intends on trying to make it work. She said that my behavior in the past few days was indicating that it wouldn't work out but my behavior hasn't changed at all... I was in a depressive episode and I was having TBI complications causing problems - I explained to her -thoroughly- that my behavior was directly related to my conditions and not as a result of our conversation. I also informed her that these things will continue until my treatments continue and some of them may never go away. (TBI is a terrible affliction). She finally saw me in my rawest of moments and that is when she apologized for her rigid stance. I think it dawned on her that just because I didn't believe in her church any longer didn't mean I was no longer the man she married and loved.
I am hopeful but cautious. I am prepared for the course to shift either way. The true test of this is when her religious leaders get a hold of her and start the talks of the significance of how this will affect her in her "eternal progression". That will be the real indicator - is whether or not she loves me above and beyond their aggressive pushes to get her away from me and into the arms of a "worthy Mormon man".
I sincerely appreciate your words and your follow-up, Maj. Jean.
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1) sounds like you may have TBI. Get it checked out.
2) traumatic experiences (like being in a war) can cause one to question beliefs.
3) how much do you love your wife? What are you willing to do to make your marriage work? Are you willing to fake it to the LDS church?
2) traumatic experiences (like being in a war) can cause one to question beliefs.
3) how much do you love your wife? What are you willing to do to make your marriage work? Are you willing to fake it to the LDS church?
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SPC (Join to see)
Sir,
1) I have been diagnosed with TBI and Occipital Neuralgia.
2) I fully believe this is the cause of my fall away from religion.
3) I love her immensely and I want our relationship to work out. I have already promised to respect her beliefs and never criticize them nor her for believing in them. I also promised to always be respectful of it in front of our children, so long as she be respectful of my beliefs. I told her our children could be raised in her church, provided I can instruct them on other religions and the absence of religion. We agreed to all those things. Yet, she has shown serious doubts in it working out in the week since I discussed this...
I am not willing to fake it in the Church. Too often, my personal beliefs conflicted and led me to the Bishop's office basically my wife forced me to confess to things I didn't want to... I do not view them as authority figures over me. It lead to my depression worsening - I tried to fake it, it did not bode well.
1) I have been diagnosed with TBI and Occipital Neuralgia.
2) I fully believe this is the cause of my fall away from religion.
3) I love her immensely and I want our relationship to work out. I have already promised to respect her beliefs and never criticize them nor her for believing in them. I also promised to always be respectful of it in front of our children, so long as she be respectful of my beliefs. I told her our children could be raised in her church, provided I can instruct them on other religions and the absence of religion. We agreed to all those things. Yet, she has shown serious doubts in it working out in the week since I discussed this...
I am not willing to fake it in the Church. Too often, my personal beliefs conflicted and led me to the Bishop's office basically my wife forced me to confess to things I didn't want to... I do not view them as authority figures over me. It lead to my depression worsening - I tried to fake it, it did not bode well.
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We have a close friend that divorces her abusive LDS husband, and the act of divorce excommunicated her from the church. It was a long term marriage, his friends became her friends and when she walked away, it was with the clothes on her back. She literally lost her past life. I did my best as a medical professional and encourages her to seek counseling, date non-LDS men And make new friends. She is a great person and has pulled out strongly and is still doing well Your migraine and neck pain and mTBI are clearly evident. Get a disability rating, the VA will now pay for chiropractic, it is called a VAPC3 program. Ask your VA PCP for a chiropractic referral....insist on it. If you do not, you'll never be the same. Trust me....if you lived in Oregon, I'd examine you and recommend care . Taking care of yourself is the most important thing now . Btw, my oldest brother and all his kids are LDS. Sorry and I am glad you are on the road to self-enlightenment. PM with any questions or concerns.
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SPC (Join to see)
Thank you, SSG(P) (Join to see) for both the information and the kind words.
I will look into VAPC3, though I've never tried a chiropractor before.
I will look into VAPC3, though I've never tried a chiropractor before.
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