Posted on Dec 18, 2023
Can someone who was frocked be arbitrarily unfrocked because they don't get along with the leading Master Chief Petty Officer?
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Back in 1980
I was serving as an Air Traffic Controller at NAS Lemoore and had qualified in the control tower in all positions, including Control Tower Supervisor. This was quite a feat for a 20 yr old E-4. My training for these positions took over a year of OJT. I had about 13 months left of active duty, I was a newlywed, when all of a sudden I got orders to NAVSTA Adak, Alaska. I asked to be extended at Lemoore to finish out my enlistment. Even though my request had been approved all the way up through the chain of command, I still got orders to transfer. Unfortunately the new duty station had a one year waiting list for married housing, so my wife lived with my parents while I finished up my last 13 months. Adak is considered isolated duty, as its on the Aleutian Islands, 1200 miles west of Anchorage. Because of the circumstances, I was really disappointed in the Navy. I was now going to have to qualify again, this time in GCA (ground controlled approach) radar. The short-sightedness of the Navy really annoyed me. My bad attitude showed. Shortly after arriving in Adak, I was frocked from E-4 to E-5. Unfortunately the ACCM (E-9) in charge of our unit and I didn’t see eye-to-eye. He was mad that the Navy sent a tower controller to a duty station that primarily was a radar controlled airspace as opposed to Lemoore which was primarily a tower controlled air station. He took his frustrations out on me. He gave me meanial task to do, task that should have been assigned to an E-3 or E-4. Finally his frustrations with me involved a meeting in to CO’s office. After our meeting I was sent to personnel where my record of promotion was literally whited out. The personnel staff member kind of scratched his head and asked why I was being unfrocked. I couldn’t explain. A few months later my enlistment was coming to an end and I was shipped back to NAS Lemoore to do my exit paperwork. I had 30 days left. The personnel staff there was also confused as to how and why I was unfrocked. Again I wasn’t able to give any explanation. After my discharge I received my Honorable Discharge in the mail, and my DD-214. I didn’t show any disciplinary action, but the re-enlistment code was RE-4, (not recommended for re-enlistment). My ID card listed me as an E-5, but my discharge showed me as an E-4. My question is this: was my unfrocking legal and proper?
I was serving as an Air Traffic Controller at NAS Lemoore and had qualified in the control tower in all positions, including Control Tower Supervisor. This was quite a feat for a 20 yr old E-4. My training for these positions took over a year of OJT. I had about 13 months left of active duty, I was a newlywed, when all of a sudden I got orders to NAVSTA Adak, Alaska. I asked to be extended at Lemoore to finish out my enlistment. Even though my request had been approved all the way up through the chain of command, I still got orders to transfer. Unfortunately the new duty station had a one year waiting list for married housing, so my wife lived with my parents while I finished up my last 13 months. Adak is considered isolated duty, as its on the Aleutian Islands, 1200 miles west of Anchorage. Because of the circumstances, I was really disappointed in the Navy. I was now going to have to qualify again, this time in GCA (ground controlled approach) radar. The short-sightedness of the Navy really annoyed me. My bad attitude showed. Shortly after arriving in Adak, I was frocked from E-4 to E-5. Unfortunately the ACCM (E-9) in charge of our unit and I didn’t see eye-to-eye. He was mad that the Navy sent a tower controller to a duty station that primarily was a radar controlled airspace as opposed to Lemoore which was primarily a tower controlled air station. He took his frustrations out on me. He gave me meanial task to do, task that should have been assigned to an E-3 or E-4. Finally his frustrations with me involved a meeting in to CO’s office. After our meeting I was sent to personnel where my record of promotion was literally whited out. The personnel staff member kind of scratched his head and asked why I was being unfrocked. I couldn’t explain. A few months later my enlistment was coming to an end and I was shipped back to NAS Lemoore to do my exit paperwork. I had 30 days left. The personnel staff there was also confused as to how and why I was unfrocked. Again I wasn’t able to give any explanation. After my discharge I received my Honorable Discharge in the mail, and my DD-214. I didn’t show any disciplinary action, but the re-enlistment code was RE-4, (not recommended for re-enlistment). My ID card listed me as an E-5, but my discharge showed me as an E-4. My question is this: was my unfrocking legal and proper?
Posted in these groups: 
Promotions
Promotions
Posted 12 mo ago
Responses: 5
Two different things you are asking at the end of the epic tale. No idea what the regulations for enlisted frocking were in the Navy back in the 80s, but yes, it can be undone (legally) at the unit level according to current Navy regulations*.
Assuming there was no fundamental change from the 80s to today, the Master Chief doesn't have the authority to 'unfrock' you, but the commander absolutely does. It is well within a reasonable possibility that he influenced the commander to rescind your froking and he did so.
As for your discharge showing you as an E-4, that is correct. You were frocked as an E-5, but your permanent grade was an E-4.
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* https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Reference/MILPERSMAN/1000/1400Promotions/1420-060%20.pdf
Assuming there was no fundamental change from the 80s to today, the Master Chief doesn't have the authority to 'unfrock' you, but the commander absolutely does. It is well within a reasonable possibility that he influenced the commander to rescind your froking and he did so.
As for your discharge showing you as an E-4, that is correct. You were frocked as an E-5, but your permanent grade was an E-4.
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* https://www.mynavyhr.navy.mil/Portals/55/Reference/MILPERSMAN/1000/1400Promotions/1420-060%20.pdf
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PO2 James Oliphant
COL Randall C. - I read the regulations in the link that you listed, and I agree with your interpretation. At my previous command, the chain of command felt that I earned the advancement, however the Master Chief felt otherwise. I was a 20 year old E-5, and he felt that I should have been older, more mature. He didn't like the concept of frocking.
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MSgt (Join to see)
PO2 James Oliphant - I would definitely be concerned with your re-enlistment code if you feel you did your job adequately. And yes, attitude can affect how leaders might Judge you. You got stuck in a crappy situation. How you handle those obstacles greatly affects how you are perceived.
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PO2 James Oliphant
MSgt (Join to see) well at this point, 42 years later, I’m no longer worried about the RE code. The Master Chief was vindictive, he didn’t want me to re-enlist.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
COL Randall C. - I understand that "Frocking" is not the official advancement. Talking to my expert "Source", he says there is no term "Defrocking" in the regulations. Remember that the Navy does not promote like we do, they are once a year and then the official advancement to the pay rate waits until either the next cycle or later. I was mistaken, thru E6 you just test and have to be in the quota range for your rate, they don't board. Still, you have to make it past the test and quota and are on the promotion list before they frock you. Any infraction, weight, inefficiency, Captains' Mast, etc, during the period can remove you from that promotion list and you go back until the next years test cycle to qualify again. So the answer is yes, he was still an E4, but no, he was not on promotion list. That is the reason that there was an O6 involved. They moved him back to his permanent rank after he had qualified for advancement.
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The Navy does promotion weird compared to the rest of the services, but an E-9 does not have statutory authority to reduce anyone. If you weren't reduced by a Captain's Mast, somebody screwed up. Not that it makes a lot of difference now, but if I had all the paperwork, I would send it to the Board of Corrections just to get it fixed.
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Being frocked is different than being promoted. It's definitely possible for you to have it re-pealed if the Commander signs off on it. Did the date of rank for E5 extend beyond your EAS? That could be the reason it was pulled back considering you didn't mention any bad paperwork that would be the result of negative paperwork or NJP.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
I don't know how Marines promote, but unless it was very different in 1980, if he was frocked, he was just waiting for an advancement date. He stated he had 13 months left, I haven't seen advancement dates that far out. Again, my point being, reducing someone, which is what defrocking to actually accomplish, requires a paper trail.
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PO2 James Oliphant
Thank you for your response. The actual effective date of promotion to E-5 was in the next month, which was about 6 months before my end of active service.
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SSgt Christophe Murphy
CPT Lawrence Cable You rarely see frocking used in the Marine Corps. The Navy on the other hand frocks everyone.
The issue is that we don’t know if there is an official date of rank. The DD214 shows them as an E4. So either the frocked rank was removed because there wasn’t a promotion or it was a normal reduction in rank.
The issue is that we don’t know if there is an official date of rank. The DD214 shows them as an E4. So either the frocked rank was removed because there wasn’t a promotion or it was a normal reduction in rank.
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CPT Lawrence Cable
SSgt Christophe Murphy - The Army doesn't frock by tradition either, or none of the units I served under frocked any. However, the Navy once a year promotion system doesn't promote like the Army or Marines. The Army is school and performance driven and if you pass the board, you don't wait to get a change in pay grade. PO's in the Navy test at the first of every year, then if you make the grade for your rate, then you go to the board. If you pass the board, you still aren't advanced in pay grade until the start of the next cycle. I suspect that is the traditional reason that they Frock.
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