Posted on Jun 5, 2023
How will the Army transition with transgender in open showers?
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I was doing field rotation that had open showers and had a thought about Transgender personell and how the be treated by other personell. I talked to a female an she said she upset if transwomen in her shower if they still had there male genitals. I asked a male the same thing and he said he wouldn't care. He said "If they identify as a man I will treat them like a man". How would you personally feel about this.
ADMIN NOTE: Be respectful to other RP members who may be in the transgender community.
ADMIN NOTE: Be respectful to other RP members who may be in the transgender community.
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 144
As discussed in our S1 one weekend back in 2018 when I was with the old 1st BDE, Pacific Division 75th Training Command The big problem is that those small group of soldiers Sailors and Airmen who join the military just to get their transgender surgery means that they will be non-mission capable for at least 2 years. We discussed this in our Brigade back in 2018. I foresee that females who complain to their superiors about transgender men will be disciplined and somebody be kicked out of the army when they have a bona fide reason to complain. This will only go away once this regime is voted out of office. People purposely joining the military to have transgender surgeries is not going to help retention. Those military personnel who are stuck in limbo getting their surgeries and not being able to deploy for 2 years will put a real strain on the system not to mention taxpayer dollars because they join the military to change General markers but not to serve our country.
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Capt John Schmitt
Actually not mission capable forever. Not suitable for continued military service. Needs a psych eval, most likely processed for separation, ASAP.
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SSG James Stodola
All of the social engineering needs to go so we can get back to our real mission, training to defend this nation, not these lunatic ideologies....
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Every now and then we all have this conversation. I imagine it started when black people were integrated into the military, then women, then homosexuals, then women in combat units and now transgender.
A couple points: 1. all Soldiers are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect. Regardless of whatever excuse we have to dislike certain aspects. They volunteered to serve. We should let them. There has been no evidence of a depreciation of readiness in any integrated units (regardless of the characterization of integration: race, gender, age, etc)
2. Soldiers must accept living and working conditions that are often austere, primitive, and characterized by little or no privacy. We went from open stall bathrooms and showers in all billets to private rooms, but the expectation of privacy is a "nice to have" not a requirement. If female Soldiers are examining the "equipment" of fellow Soldiers, perhaps they should mind their own, do what they need to do and get out of the shower. The same goes for males. A lot of civilians would be uncomfortable showering in an open bay, but we do not change anything for them. Some places even have mixed gender bathrooms with individual stalls and showers.
3. Most integration efforts suffer from ignorance and preconceived notions and bias. Soldiers diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria do not get to change their gender marker until they are medically cleared. Until then, they are treated as the gender marker they enlisted with. The Real Life Experience (RLE) phase begins only during off-duty hours. Most Soldiers are not even aware someone is diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria and some don't even pursue transition because it is not medically necessary. The ones I have met wait to change their gender marker until they PCS as part of their RLE transition to full time.
4. Civilians with a history of gender dysphoria are accessed the same way as anyone else with a medical condition that impact military service. High impacts will always require a waiver. The Army was already providing medically necessary care for other preexisting behavioral health conditions (counseling, medication, etc).
This is a small unit issue that will depend on the professionalism of the Soldiers assigned around them. If everyone is a grown up, there are no problems. If someone does not like it, they can sit down with their 1SG/CDR who will tell them the same thing.
Females in the Army have more to fear from male Soldiers than from female transgender Soldiers. Female Soldiers are more likely to be sexually assaulted by a male Soldier than being injured by the enemy. We have bigger fish to fry than what someone is rocking between their legs in the shower. If they are performing to expectations, then we treat them with dignity and respect and move out.
A couple points: 1. all Soldiers are entitled to be treated with dignity and respect. Regardless of whatever excuse we have to dislike certain aspects. They volunteered to serve. We should let them. There has been no evidence of a depreciation of readiness in any integrated units (regardless of the characterization of integration: race, gender, age, etc)
2. Soldiers must accept living and working conditions that are often austere, primitive, and characterized by little or no privacy. We went from open stall bathrooms and showers in all billets to private rooms, but the expectation of privacy is a "nice to have" not a requirement. If female Soldiers are examining the "equipment" of fellow Soldiers, perhaps they should mind their own, do what they need to do and get out of the shower. The same goes for males. A lot of civilians would be uncomfortable showering in an open bay, but we do not change anything for them. Some places even have mixed gender bathrooms with individual stalls and showers.
3. Most integration efforts suffer from ignorance and preconceived notions and bias. Soldiers diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria do not get to change their gender marker until they are medically cleared. Until then, they are treated as the gender marker they enlisted with. The Real Life Experience (RLE) phase begins only during off-duty hours. Most Soldiers are not even aware someone is diagnosed with Gender Dysphoria and some don't even pursue transition because it is not medically necessary. The ones I have met wait to change their gender marker until they PCS as part of their RLE transition to full time.
4. Civilians with a history of gender dysphoria are accessed the same way as anyone else with a medical condition that impact military service. High impacts will always require a waiver. The Army was already providing medically necessary care for other preexisting behavioral health conditions (counseling, medication, etc).
This is a small unit issue that will depend on the professionalism of the Soldiers assigned around them. If everyone is a grown up, there are no problems. If someone does not like it, they can sit down with their 1SG/CDR who will tell them the same thing.
Females in the Army have more to fear from male Soldiers than from female transgender Soldiers. Female Soldiers are more likely to be sexually assaulted by a male Soldier than being injured by the enemy. We have bigger fish to fry than what someone is rocking between their legs in the shower. If they are performing to expectations, then we treat them with dignity and respect and move out.
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Capt John Schmitt
Transgender is not an inherent trait, so is not similar to race, gender, sexual orientation (to some extent more choice than trait), or any protected classification. The DEI ABC's agenda issues must end ASAP. For the good of the service, morale, order and discipline, readiness, capabilities, etc.
There is not a reasonable justification yet devised that supports the continued degradation of the US armed forces through social experimentation programs.
There is not a reasonable justification yet devised that supports the continued degradation of the US armed forces through social experimentation programs.
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CSM William Everroad
Capt John Schmitt - Not once did I indicate a disregard for unit readiness. You are making up a boogeyman because you feel it will impact unit readiness, and it hasn't. Same story, different reason for complaint.
How does it affect morale? People getting twisted because someone with attributes they don't like has volunteered to stand next to them and fight the good fight. Poor leaders let issues like this eat at good order and discipline, not the other way around. We train professionals, not toddlers who cry when they can't make everyone meet some preconceived notion of "right". We have standards for a reason and if "DEI ABC" meets the standard, I don't care who you are if you can shoot move, communicate and do basic math, you are welcome on my team.
But you keep on keeping on in the Marine Corps that approves over 70% of all eye, vision, musculoskeletal, and psychiatric waiver requests (that is not even considering Character waivers). And you are worried about a few transgender or homosexual Soldiers who meet every other criteria "reducing unit readiness"?
How does it affect morale? People getting twisted because someone with attributes they don't like has volunteered to stand next to them and fight the good fight. Poor leaders let issues like this eat at good order and discipline, not the other way around. We train professionals, not toddlers who cry when they can't make everyone meet some preconceived notion of "right". We have standards for a reason and if "DEI ABC" meets the standard, I don't care who you are if you can shoot move, communicate and do basic math, you are welcome on my team.
But you keep on keeping on in the Marine Corps that approves over 70% of all eye, vision, musculoskeletal, and psychiatric waiver requests (that is not even considering Character waivers). And you are worried about a few transgender or homosexual Soldiers who meet every other criteria "reducing unit readiness"?
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MSG (Join to see)
This is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. It shouldn't even be a topic of conversation. Mentally ill people are not fit to serve in the first place. Secondly we should not be encouraging or enabling it. This only serves to weaken our ranks along with the leadership idealogy that is in favor of it. If you are ok with this then please ETS so you're not holding a position of leadership for yhe people with common sense to move us fwd in an effective way. There are two genders PERIOD!! If anyone is confused about it then open a medical book and look between your legs. "TRANS" people still sexually assault the opposite biological sex. Get it together folks. I said what I said.
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CSM William Everroad
MSG (Join to see) - your position is based on you making a determination of which Army policies are worth following. "Mentally ill" as a facet of "incomparable with military service" is a characterization that is not ours to make. It has nothing to do with what leaders "are in favor of" or not. I have not seen any examples where there has been a weakening of ranks in this, there are a few studies that found that transgender Soldiers have been documented as successfully serving out their contracts even under DADT without transitioning. But, you are correct, the Army currently only recognizes two genders and it appears that will remain unchanged. I find your claim that "trans people still sexually assault the opposite biological sex" specious and irrelevant. In the military the overwhelming, not even close, offender of military sexual assaults are cisgender men assaulting cisgender and transgender women. I could not find even 1 article of a transgender Soldier assaulting anyone, if you have that reference that makes it relevant to your position, I would be happy to take a look and amend my view. This is, after all, a conversation.
I will participate in Senior leader forums that discuss and solicit our feedback from the field, consider and provide relevant feedback to senior leaders, you do you and fight the good fight, rail against social experimentation and sit in the corners of the NCO club with like minded senior enlisted bemoaning the current policies of "big Army". But I advise caution, because I have seen this type of narrow view before when homosexuality was deemed "incompatible to military service" and a social ill that had no place in the military. I saw quite a few senior leaders with positions similar to yours that stood by and sometimes even participated, while good Soldiers were bullied, assaulted, forced to quit for merely the suspicion of being homosexual. Leaders ceded their responsibility to maintain good order and discipline in their own units and train professional Soldiers. I will continue to train and mentor all Soldiers assigned to me to be professionals who treat American Soldiers and citizens with dignity and respect, throw their ruck on and move out. You are welcome to join me.
I will participate in Senior leader forums that discuss and solicit our feedback from the field, consider and provide relevant feedback to senior leaders, you do you and fight the good fight, rail against social experimentation and sit in the corners of the NCO club with like minded senior enlisted bemoaning the current policies of "big Army". But I advise caution, because I have seen this type of narrow view before when homosexuality was deemed "incompatible to military service" and a social ill that had no place in the military. I saw quite a few senior leaders with positions similar to yours that stood by and sometimes even participated, while good Soldiers were bullied, assaulted, forced to quit for merely the suspicion of being homosexual. Leaders ceded their responsibility to maintain good order and discipline in their own units and train professional Soldiers. I will continue to train and mentor all Soldiers assigned to me to be professionals who treat American Soldiers and citizens with dignity and respect, throw their ruck on and move out. You are welcome to join me.
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I've seen comments regarding a transitioning Soldier and thought I'd lay out the Active Duty process (there is a different process for reserve component, IRR, and ING Soldiers). BTW - I'm rendering no opinion in support for or against the process - just laying out what it is.
As I mentioned elsewhere, until the gender marker in DEERS is changed, Soldiers will still be treated as whatever is reflected. Furthermore, the gender marker isn't something that is changed because a Soldier decides that they want it changed and go to the RAPIDS office and implement it. It takes a while for the process to happen.
First the Soldier has to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the medical provider has to indicate gender transition treatment is medically necessary (note, this does not automatically mean gender transition surgery), and then they develop a treatment plan.
After that, a brigade-level commander has to approve the timing of the transition (again, not necessarily 'surgery', but changing the DEERS identification and how they will be treated) weighing the treatment plan and the the Soldier's individual circumstances, impact to military readiness and the mission, as well as the morale, welfare, good order and discipline of the unit. This will very likely be done in concert with the Soldier's commander regarding personnel impacts, upcoming missions, etc.
Once a time-line is established, and assuming nothing changes it, after the Solder completes medical treatment and the provider notifies the commander that the Soldier has achieved stability in the self-identified gender along with a recommendation of when the change in DEERS should happen.
At that point the Soldier can request that the change actually happen along with all the documentation necessary (medical diagnosis & confirmation from provider, legal documentation, etc). The brigade level command will consult with the Service Central Coordination Cell (SCCC) at the ASA (M&RA) and has 30 days to review the packet to ensure it's complete. Assuming everything is in order, THEN the commander will approve the request, including a date when the PAR to change the gender can occur in IPPS-A.
As I mentioned elsewhere, until the gender marker in DEERS is changed, Soldiers will still be treated as whatever is reflected. Furthermore, the gender marker isn't something that is changed because a Soldier decides that they want it changed and go to the RAPIDS office and implement it. It takes a while for the process to happen.
First the Soldier has to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria, the medical provider has to indicate gender transition treatment is medically necessary (note, this does not automatically mean gender transition surgery), and then they develop a treatment plan.
After that, a brigade-level commander has to approve the timing of the transition (again, not necessarily 'surgery', but changing the DEERS identification and how they will be treated) weighing the treatment plan and the the Soldier's individual circumstances, impact to military readiness and the mission, as well as the morale, welfare, good order and discipline of the unit. This will very likely be done in concert with the Soldier's commander regarding personnel impacts, upcoming missions, etc.
Once a time-line is established, and assuming nothing changes it, after the Solder completes medical treatment and the provider notifies the commander that the Soldier has achieved stability in the self-identified gender along with a recommendation of when the change in DEERS should happen.
At that point the Soldier can request that the change actually happen along with all the documentation necessary (medical diagnosis & confirmation from provider, legal documentation, etc). The brigade level command will consult with the Service Central Coordination Cell (SCCC) at the ASA (M&RA) and has 30 days to review the packet to ensure it's complete. Assuming everything is in order, THEN the commander will approve the request, including a date when the PAR to change the gender can occur in IPPS-A.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
SGT (Join to see) - Non Sequitur, Your premise is invalid. Gender reassignment surgery is elective surgery, just as breast augmentation for a female that is mentally hung up on the size of her breasts, or some types of other cosmetic surgeries done for elective, reasons. I support psychological treatment for Gender dysphoria disorder. It is totally a mental condition, totally not the responsibility of the US Military to fund or adapt to. Just like a Diabetic is separated because of insulin requirements, those that have repeated alcohol incidents are separated, and transgender individuals will NEVER not require medications that can cause other problems, this is not the business of the US Military to fund the delusions of an individual that need a psychiatrist not a surgeon.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
COL Randall Cudworth,
Being And Independent Voter AND Person,
I'm A Staunch CONSERVATIVE ~ I'm A Staunch LIBERAL ~
Give Me An Issue THEN I'll Decide. Although I Have Several
Gay/Lesbian Friends As Well As A Lesbian Grand Daughter,
I'd Simply Not Allow Any To Enter The Service ~ I Consider Their Issues,
Socialization & Command Issues & The Expenses Involved In Their Health Care &
Requested Elective Surgeries, And I Come Up With A ZERO Reason For Them To Be
Allowed Into The Service Any Military Level ~ Few Could Serves For But A Few Purposes, Simply Due To So Many Issues, And Their Acceptance From The Others
Being And Independent Voter AND Person,
I'm A Staunch CONSERVATIVE ~ I'm A Staunch LIBERAL ~
Give Me An Issue THEN I'll Decide. Although I Have Several
Gay/Lesbian Friends As Well As A Lesbian Grand Daughter,
I'd Simply Not Allow Any To Enter The Service ~ I Consider Their Issues,
Socialization & Command Issues & The Expenses Involved In Their Health Care &
Requested Elective Surgeries, And I Come Up With A ZERO Reason For Them To Be
Allowed Into The Service Any Military Level ~ Few Could Serves For But A Few Purposes, Simply Due To So Many Issues, And Their Acceptance From The Others
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