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Motorcycles
Motorcycle Safety Foundation Rider Coach
Leadership
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 10
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I think almost all of these answers apply to me. The wait was too long, my unit was unsupportive, it was a further drive to a base that offered the course, and I wouldn't have been allowed the time off. When I bought my bike, the dealership paid for the course anyways, so it was easier to take it a civilian capacity where I wouldn't be subject to harassment or seeing others harassed based on rank.
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Sgt Mark Ramos
SGT Kristin Wiley, Did you buy a Harley? I just heard last weekend that they provide the class for free as a thank you to military members.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
No, not a Harley. I bought a Kawasaki Ninja. I'm one of those people that doesn't fit into any one category. I'm looking at getting a new bike, but I'm torn between a Harley Forty-Eight and a Ducati Panigale. I love the look of the Forty-Eight, but I love the riding style of sports bikes.
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SGT Kristin Wiley
SGT Edward L. - Yeah, the classes were on Schofield. I took mine at Leeward Community college. The instructors were great, so I'm glad I chose that route. My state (Oregon at the time) accepted the certification without requiring any additional tests, but I also cleared it through the DMV beforehand.
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SGM Erik Marquez
I can only assume it is a local issue.
As I teach for Cape Fox on Fort Hood and we have no such problems.
Rank means nothing and we treat each rider as if they were a paying customer.
There are no military leaders over watching the training nor post safety folks.
It's just 12 students and two rider coaches.
I would
Refuse to work in an envoiorment like you describe. The distractions you mention are a safety concern at least and a roadblock to effect training.
As I teach for Cape Fox on Fort Hood and we have no such problems.
Rank means nothing and we treat each rider as if they were a paying customer.
There are no military leaders over watching the training nor post safety folks.
It's just 12 students and two rider coaches.
I would
Refuse to work in an envoiorment like you describe. The distractions you mention are a safety concern at least and a roadblock to effect training.
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Usually because the installation doesn't offer it. Or sometimes the installation has a partnership with a local college to provide the training necessary. I don't know why each installation doesn't provide the training, probably has to do with monetary constraints.
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SGM Erik Marquez
I have not had the displeasure of being at a Army post that does not offer the course but I can see smaller ones not having the resources to spend on a lightly used cours when a pay to play scheme is a better more fiscal responsible plan.
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I just didn't want to take it under the flag pole. Stupidity already abounds. For those of us that have been riding 20+ years it was ridiculously repetitive and annoying. I had more riding experience than the instructors. Now can you imagine taking it on post under military purview? Multiple safety briefs and other rank just making it a miserable experience rather than just getting it over. Yeah, No thanks!
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SSG (Join to see)
SGM, You do realize that the perception of a lack of rank influence drops the higher you rise in rank. The question asked indicates an issue.
Rank always has a place.
Personally I have found that BRC instructors on the military side tend to compound the issues of both military and motorcycle riders.
Rank always has a place.
Personally I have found that BRC instructors on the military side tend to compound the issues of both military and motorcycle riders.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG (Join to see) - Personally I have found, where did you observe this? What post, when, what course?
Im truly interested as I always am when I read about perceptions and "observations" I've never seen.
That's not finger pointing and saying they are not valid observations, it just always intrigues me when the same national course of instruction taught in a like environments is perceived to be so vastly different then my personal 1st hand observations.
SSG (Join to see) "You do realize that the perception of a lack of rank influence drops the higher you rise in rank"
You do realize I started as a E1 privet and actually spent time in various units at various ranks along the way...Yes? My Perception and that of others is built from more than a single day, occurrence or location ,,as is yours.
Its truly frustrating your perception of what i see daily as a quality training environment, done professionally is so vastly different....
thanks for responding.
Im truly interested as I always am when I read about perceptions and "observations" I've never seen.
That's not finger pointing and saying they are not valid observations, it just always intrigues me when the same national course of instruction taught in a like environments is perceived to be so vastly different then my personal 1st hand observations.
SSG (Join to see) "You do realize that the perception of a lack of rank influence drops the higher you rise in rank"
You do realize I started as a E1 privet and actually spent time in various units at various ranks along the way...Yes? My Perception and that of others is built from more than a single day, occurrence or location ,,as is yours.
Its truly frustrating your perception of what i see daily as a quality training environment, done professionally is so vastly different....
thanks for responding.
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SGM Erik Marquez
MSG(P) (Join to see) - Actually, my response was in direct reaction to your words..."For those of us that have been riding 20+ years it was ridiculously repetitive and annoying. "
And my opinion , observations and position have been validated time and time again first hand. The worst riders to help are the ones that have a perception they know it all and are better riders than reality shows. If that is not you, congratulations, you are the exception. I only teach about 740 people a year, perhaps my demographic pool is too small to find folks like you. What a pleasure it would be to have had you in a class for others to model off of.
And my opinion , observations and position have been validated time and time again first hand. The worst riders to help are the ones that have a perception they know it all and are better riders than reality shows. If that is not you, congratulations, you are the exception. I only teach about 740 people a year, perhaps my demographic pool is too small to find folks like you. What a pleasure it would be to have had you in a class for others to model off of.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
SGM, your comment completely validates my original post. You took an opinion simply voiced personally and then took a defensive posture. It wasn't directed AT you but in general. I never said I knew it all but the BASIC course is simply that. Basic. If you've been riding a long time you should already be well versed in the concepts taught in the basic course. It was annoying to me to waster three days of time to hear concepts taught to me years ago and exercised over the last 25 years or more.
To further my point, the amount of sarcasm and attitude one could perceive from your last post is exactly why I wouldn't want to do it on base. Because I've been riding so long, I would fade into the background and let those less experienced riders get the most benefit out of the class. It would seem the most appropriate and professional thing to do. However, someone, say like a SGM who is also an instructor, would eventually try to make some point like you have above and get a shitty and toxic attitude. An attitude where I'd have to just shake my head and accept that as part of the army and your rank versus mine. Whereas off post I could pretty much tell the person to fuck themselves if it got to that point and that they should focus on those that need it. And while you feel there are those riders that know it all (which is absolutely true, I totally agree that many do), I have had the same exact experience with instructors who have been instructing 2-5 years and only riding 10-15 who think they know better than everyone because they took an advanced course as well as a course on how to give a course.
As an instructor myself I can tell you that numbers don't mean a thing. One can instruct 5000 students. If they do so poorly, what does it matter how many were taught?? No matter what it may say on an NCOER about how many were trained, how does that equate to knowledge base or ability or the quality of instruction??
Normally I wouldn't even respond to this because it's silly and infantile but it just felt like you are purposely trying to call me out and then make some judgement of my response which of course I didn't fail to provide you. These comments are directed toward from Robert Nadeau the rider as this is what the post was regarding. If you were speaking to SFC Nadeau be assured my response would be much different, which again validates a couple of the opinions expressed above.
You've had bad students. I've seen many bad instructors. Nothing personal about that. Moving on!
To further my point, the amount of sarcasm and attitude one could perceive from your last post is exactly why I wouldn't want to do it on base. Because I've been riding so long, I would fade into the background and let those less experienced riders get the most benefit out of the class. It would seem the most appropriate and professional thing to do. However, someone, say like a SGM who is also an instructor, would eventually try to make some point like you have above and get a shitty and toxic attitude. An attitude where I'd have to just shake my head and accept that as part of the army and your rank versus mine. Whereas off post I could pretty much tell the person to fuck themselves if it got to that point and that they should focus on those that need it. And while you feel there are those riders that know it all (which is absolutely true, I totally agree that many do), I have had the same exact experience with instructors who have been instructing 2-5 years and only riding 10-15 who think they know better than everyone because they took an advanced course as well as a course on how to give a course.
As an instructor myself I can tell you that numbers don't mean a thing. One can instruct 5000 students. If they do so poorly, what does it matter how many were taught?? No matter what it may say on an NCOER about how many were trained, how does that equate to knowledge base or ability or the quality of instruction??
Normally I wouldn't even respond to this because it's silly and infantile but it just felt like you are purposely trying to call me out and then make some judgement of my response which of course I didn't fail to provide you. These comments are directed toward from Robert Nadeau the rider as this is what the post was regarding. If you were speaking to SFC Nadeau be assured my response would be much different, which again validates a couple of the opinions expressed above.
You've had bad students. I've seen many bad instructors. Nothing personal about that. Moving on!
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