Posted on May 1, 2015
What Is The Problem With The Navy Service Culture?
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From the current transition away from a traditional Deepwater Fleet to the new Littoral concept; the "Green Navy" initiative that is consuming budgets like a cancer; to the unsettling trend of relieving Commanding Officers in Captain billets and above for so much as farting at an inopportune time, it seems that from our outside perspective, these are challenging days to be a Sailor. Is this true?
Just as I did with the Air Force a couple of months ago, I ask this question with all do respect, and in the interest of fostering educational and professional cross-talk amongst all ranks of all branches. My intent is for this to be a respectful and open dialogue, and not to devolve into a meme war or a bashing contest over which branch is superior to the next. Why is my question phrased so provocatively? Well, it got your attention, didn't it? Secondly, as an educator, it is natural to open with a question that asks us to consider if such problems exist and develop the discussion from there, regardless if a true problem exists or not.
Thank you for coming aboard and joining in!
LT (Join to see) LCDR (Join to see) @LTJG PO2 William Allen Crowder
Just as I did with the Air Force a couple of months ago, I ask this question with all do respect, and in the interest of fostering educational and professional cross-talk amongst all ranks of all branches. My intent is for this to be a respectful and open dialogue, and not to devolve into a meme war or a bashing contest over which branch is superior to the next. Why is my question phrased so provocatively? Well, it got your attention, didn't it? Secondly, as an educator, it is natural to open with a question that asks us to consider if such problems exist and develop the discussion from there, regardless if a true problem exists or not.
Thank you for coming aboard and joining in!
LT (Join to see) LCDR (Join to see) @LTJG PO2 William Allen Crowder
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 6
Sailors (at Sea) work longer and harder than anyone I have ever seen. The OPTEMPO is just constant, and insane. The ship does not stop running. It has to be constantly maintained, regardless of what else is going on.
They're "cities" and the Captain is in charge of it all, down to the last bolt.
Being at Sea, there is no running to Mainside if you find yourself short of X. You have to make it to the next UNREP, and a little mistake is anything but. They snowball fast.
Moving away from the US Navy for just a second. Look at these cruise ship disasters over the last few years. A plumbing problem, or an engine problem, and you end up with 3k~ people stranded for 7 days, and no way to get them home. Now imagine doing that with a military vessel in the middle of the Indian or Pacific, and the food is running out.
This promotes a "zero defect" mentality, and honestly, in the Navy I can understand it. While I was in, I saw more Captain's Mast (NJP / Art 15) on Ship than I saw anywhere else. They did not screw around. The "relieved for cause" piece is just an extension of that.
I think we are just more aware of it now, because of the internet, and social media. As information is more available, Higher Headquarters is just faster about removing people at even a hint of trouble. If you're in charge a billion dollar piece of equipment, and thousands of lives, there is no reason to give the benefit of the doubt. We'll assume guilt, get someone else out there, and let the investigation clear you. I know this seems counter to American Ideology... but think of the alternatives.
Now, that said, this isn't all bad or good. It can promote a fear of failure mentality, but it can also promote a trust in the organization that toxic leadership will just be "disappeared" swiftly. No games, no muss, no fuss. Just gone.
They're "cities" and the Captain is in charge of it all, down to the last bolt.
Being at Sea, there is no running to Mainside if you find yourself short of X. You have to make it to the next UNREP, and a little mistake is anything but. They snowball fast.
Moving away from the US Navy for just a second. Look at these cruise ship disasters over the last few years. A plumbing problem, or an engine problem, and you end up with 3k~ people stranded for 7 days, and no way to get them home. Now imagine doing that with a military vessel in the middle of the Indian or Pacific, and the food is running out.
This promotes a "zero defect" mentality, and honestly, in the Navy I can understand it. While I was in, I saw more Captain's Mast (NJP / Art 15) on Ship than I saw anywhere else. They did not screw around. The "relieved for cause" piece is just an extension of that.
I think we are just more aware of it now, because of the internet, and social media. As information is more available, Higher Headquarters is just faster about removing people at even a hint of trouble. If you're in charge a billion dollar piece of equipment, and thousands of lives, there is no reason to give the benefit of the doubt. We'll assume guilt, get someone else out there, and let the investigation clear you. I know this seems counter to American Ideology... but think of the alternatives.
Now, that said, this isn't all bad or good. It can promote a fear of failure mentality, but it can also promote a trust in the organization that toxic leadership will just be "disappeared" swiftly. No games, no muss, no fuss. Just gone.
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LCDR (Join to see)
The funny thing is that we've had a pretty standard number of firings; it's just more visible, and there's that paranoia involved. Most of the military is pretty hard line conservative and see the President as an enemy as a result, which seems to make people feel targeted.
You're right, though, about how it's unlikely a senior civilian official would know who an O-6 is unless they worked together on something. I doubt they get much visibility prior to O-8.
You're right, though, about how it's unlikely a senior civilian official would know who an O-6 is unless they worked together on something. I doubt they get much visibility prior to O-8.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LCDR (Join to see) Believe it or not, most military isn't hard line conservative anymore. It's actually about a 40/30/30 split (Conservative/Independent/Progressive). The numbers tend to reflect society as a whole, and skew slightly more "libertarian" than "right" according to more recent studies.
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LCDR (Join to see)
If I remember correctly, the officer corps leans heavily to the right, while the enlisted men and women reflect society pretty accurately. I know I read about it somewhere when I was looking up some of the scandals at the AF Academy a few years ago. That could certainly sway my perception, since I've been surrounded solely by officers for the last 7 years. I'll have to go find some current and accurate statistics on that one; as an unabashed liberal and atheist, I definitely have not seen any peers that agree with me openly in my beliefs. Nearly all my colleagues are Libertarians or Republicans with strong religious faith.
At any rate, that's not terribly relevant to this discussion. It's just an observation. As for the firings, I'm pretty certain they've been around these levels since the '90s.
At any rate, that's not terribly relevant to this discussion. It's just an observation. As for the firings, I'm pretty certain they've been around these levels since the '90s.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LCDR (Join to see) I could see that. The O' Corps being its size wouldn't sway the needle too far statistically. I had merely mentioned it as an aside.
The firings though have definitely been "stable" for decades. We're just more aware of them now. They "might" be slightly more public now, instead of just disappearing someone in the middle of the night though, they use the "loss of confidence" line.
The firings though have definitely been "stable" for decades. We're just more aware of them now. They "might" be slightly more public now, instead of just disappearing someone in the middle of the night though, they use the "loss of confidence" line.
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I wish I could speak with any authority on what most of the Navy does, but I just fly land-based airplanes.
The zero-defect culture we have now is one that followed Admiral Rickover and his nuclear program. Once the rest of the admiralty saw what kind of results he could get by belittling people, treating them like slaves, and forcing them to live in utter fear of a single mistake, they knew what they had to do to replicate them.
As for getting away from a blue water concept and into a green water mindset, the best answer I can give is that we don't have any rivals. Our current submarine fleets and carrier battle groups are more than capable of winning in the open ocean, but there is a desire to be more hands-on in littoral waters, with a bigger presence than gun boats can give. It's the street fighter concept.
The zero-defect culture we have now is one that followed Admiral Rickover and his nuclear program. Once the rest of the admiralty saw what kind of results he could get by belittling people, treating them like slaves, and forcing them to live in utter fear of a single mistake, they knew what they had to do to replicate them.
As for getting away from a blue water concept and into a green water mindset, the best answer I can give is that we don't have any rivals. Our current submarine fleets and carrier battle groups are more than capable of winning in the open ocean, but there is a desire to be more hands-on in littoral waters, with a bigger presence than gun boats can give. It's the street fighter concept.
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PO2 Johnathan Kerns
The zero-defect culture we have now is one that followed Admiral Rickover and his nuclear program. Once the rest of the admiralty saw what kind of results he could get by belittling people, treating them like slaves, and forcing them to live in utter fear of a single mistake, they knew what they had to do to replicate them.
Exactly how I felt the whole time I was in. I thought I was paranoid lol I guess not.
Exactly how I felt the whole time I was in. I thought I was paranoid lol I guess not.
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I think the whole military in general (with the possible exception of the Marines) seems to be quite confused as to it's role. The Cold War has been over for over 2 decades and we just spent the last 13-14 years fighting a war no one was prepared for nor wanted to fight. Now with budget cuts and global uncertainty every service is trying to find the best way to stay relevant (in order to maintain their budget). Also, our foreign policy hasn't had a sufficient update since the end of the Cold War so the services are really just playing it by ear at this point.
If we want all the chaos in the branches to stop we need to set a realistic and solid foreign policy from which they can be guided. There needs to be directives about what their missions should be (i.e. USMC is the amphibious, rapidly-deployable, ground combat force). And there needs to be more cooperation between the service chiefs and Congress on budgets, that are realistic (no more F-35 fiascos).
If we want all the chaos in the branches to stop we need to set a realistic and solid foreign policy from which they can be guided. There needs to be directives about what their missions should be (i.e. USMC is the amphibious, rapidly-deployable, ground combat force). And there needs to be more cooperation between the service chiefs and Congress on budgets, that are realistic (no more F-35 fiascos).
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SGT James Elphick
I think "Front Toward Enemy" should be printed on all USMC body armor, just in case
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SGT James Elphick We have it tattooed in UV in on our Left Breast right before bootcamp graduation.
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