Posted on Mar 18, 2015
Do Army Leaders (Military Leaders) really understand counseling and leader development?
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I am interested in your thoughts on how you think we are we are doing, as an Army, (Navy, Air Force, Marines) with performance and professional growth counseling, and hence leader development.
The latest Army definition of Leadership added "improve the organization," which I interpret to mean improving both the unit and the individuals serving there. The latter requires a concerted counseling and leader development focus. This is the latest:
"Leadership is the process of influencing people by providing purpose,
direction, and motivation to accomplish the mission and improve the
organization." (Army Doctrine Publication (ADP) 6-22, Army Leadership).
I have read various posts about counseling, and how we doing at it, and I am interested in your thoughts for several reasons:
1. I have a Masters Degree in counseling and leader development, and I am pursuing a PhD in the same discipline.
2. I know (at least in my experiences) that we don't do very well at counseling on the whole. We seem to do event oriented counseling when required, but we largely miss the boat on performance counseling and personal growth counseling.
3. I have made this a priority in my Army Career, largely because most of my bosses were not good at this. Most of my bosses just called me in, handed my OER, and asked if I had many questions. Or, asked me how I thought I was doing. Many times my bosses were out of the touch with what OERs needed to say, if your intent was for the Rated Officer to promoted... or move forward. Only had one boss who called me in when I started a job, who shared his vision and expectations with me - on a hand written note...
4. Because I taught this to Cadets at West Point, LTs at the MP Basic Course (OBC/BOLC), and now I am teaching this to HS JROTC Cadets.
5. Finally, because now that I am in the civilian world (education = the polar opposite of the Army), I find these leaders (administrators as they are called) are even worse than leaders I had in the Army...
I believe counseling (listening more than you talk) is essential for leader development, but from what I have seen... we are not really very good at it.
Please share your thoughts and experiences.
http://www.armywriter.com/counseling-developmental.htm
http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/adp6_22_new.pdf
The latest Army definition of Leadership added "improve the organization," which I interpret to mean improving both the unit and the individuals serving there. The latter requires a concerted counseling and leader development focus. This is the latest:
"Leadership is the process of influencing people by providing purpose,
direction, and motivation to accomplish the mission and improve the
organization." (Army Doctrine Publication (ADP) 6-22, Army Leadership).
I have read various posts about counseling, and how we doing at it, and I am interested in your thoughts for several reasons:
1. I have a Masters Degree in counseling and leader development, and I am pursuing a PhD in the same discipline.
2. I know (at least in my experiences) that we don't do very well at counseling on the whole. We seem to do event oriented counseling when required, but we largely miss the boat on performance counseling and personal growth counseling.
3. I have made this a priority in my Army Career, largely because most of my bosses were not good at this. Most of my bosses just called me in, handed my OER, and asked if I had many questions. Or, asked me how I thought I was doing. Many times my bosses were out of the touch with what OERs needed to say, if your intent was for the Rated Officer to promoted... or move forward. Only had one boss who called me in when I started a job, who shared his vision and expectations with me - on a hand written note...
4. Because I taught this to Cadets at West Point, LTs at the MP Basic Course (OBC/BOLC), and now I am teaching this to HS JROTC Cadets.
5. Finally, because now that I am in the civilian world (education = the polar opposite of the Army), I find these leaders (administrators as they are called) are even worse than leaders I had in the Army...
I believe counseling (listening more than you talk) is essential for leader development, but from what I have seen... we are not really very good at it.
Please share your thoughts and experiences.
http://www.armywriter.com/counseling-developmental.htm
http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/adp6_22_new.pdf
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 43
Sir, I am glad you bring this up because I feel strongly about it. So here's my thought.
The Army emphases the importance of counseling and how much our success depends on it. However, there is little to no emphasis in developing counselors. In other words, it would be as if we wanted everyone to have 300 on an APFT, but we never do PT. But because we really do emphasize PT, we do it every day, we are graded on it very strictly, our career depends upon our performance in it, and we even send individuals to school to become Master Fitness Trainers. So yes I buy that we think PT is important because our practice shows that.
On the other hand, lets look at counseling vs PT.
PT vs. Counseling
Frequency Daily(twice for failures) vs. Monthly/Quarterly for NCO's (if it's done)
Performance Measure APFT vs. None
Specialty School Master Fitness vs. None
Retention Standard Failure=discharge vs. None
Awards PT Badge vs. None
I could keep going but you get the point. I could make the analogy for just about any other metric besides PT. So we want good counseling but we don't make good counselors. We don't train them properly. Look at your own credentials you listed to be a counselor as a civilian, and then look at the Army's. There are none. Anyone and everyone is and can be a counselor. We require them to be. So there's no credentials to do it but there must be training then. Well if you count a couple of hours of power point slides in your NCOES, then yes, we provide training. Probably about the same amount of training a Lab Tech gets on head space and timing on the 50. More often than not, an NCO is doing his counseling based off of the little blue book called the Mentor and just copies and pastes what someone else and wrote. Why? Because that's how he was counseled. If we say that counseling is important, then we have to treat it that way. There's zero accountability for failing these "requirements."
Fail a APFT and you're out, fail to counsel, well just have your subordinate write his own eval. Would we let them grade themselves on the APFT or write their own card? No that would be ridiculous wouldn't it? Yes it sure would, and yes it sure is.
If we want good counseling, we need good counselors. If we want good counselors then we need to make them. We are not.
The Army emphases the importance of counseling and how much our success depends on it. However, there is little to no emphasis in developing counselors. In other words, it would be as if we wanted everyone to have 300 on an APFT, but we never do PT. But because we really do emphasize PT, we do it every day, we are graded on it very strictly, our career depends upon our performance in it, and we even send individuals to school to become Master Fitness Trainers. So yes I buy that we think PT is important because our practice shows that.
On the other hand, lets look at counseling vs PT.
PT vs. Counseling
Frequency Daily(twice for failures) vs. Monthly/Quarterly for NCO's (if it's done)
Performance Measure APFT vs. None
Specialty School Master Fitness vs. None
Retention Standard Failure=discharge vs. None
Awards PT Badge vs. None
I could keep going but you get the point. I could make the analogy for just about any other metric besides PT. So we want good counseling but we don't make good counselors. We don't train them properly. Look at your own credentials you listed to be a counselor as a civilian, and then look at the Army's. There are none. Anyone and everyone is and can be a counselor. We require them to be. So there's no credentials to do it but there must be training then. Well if you count a couple of hours of power point slides in your NCOES, then yes, we provide training. Probably about the same amount of training a Lab Tech gets on head space and timing on the 50. More often than not, an NCO is doing his counseling based off of the little blue book called the Mentor and just copies and pastes what someone else and wrote. Why? Because that's how he was counseled. If we say that counseling is important, then we have to treat it that way. There's zero accountability for failing these "requirements."
Fail a APFT and you're out, fail to counsel, well just have your subordinate write his own eval. Would we let them grade themselves on the APFT or write their own card? No that would be ridiculous wouldn't it? Yes it sure would, and yes it sure is.
If we want good counseling, we need good counselors. If we want good counselors then we need to make them. We are not.
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There is an art and science to counseling and it takes practice to learn to blend them to best tackle the situation at hand. You cannot approach every situation the same, and you cannot approach every person the same.
Sometimes its best when you take the directive approach: "you will accomplish the following .....and I will be there to inspect these requirements, you will meet me on ____date to conduct a follow up assessment to this counseling".
Sometimes its best for the counselee to use a participatory in the counseling session: "you decided the best plan of action was to accomplish x,y,z......I will be there to assist you in accomplishing these tasks, we will conduct our follow up assessment on _____date"
Sometimes its best to use a combined approach: "after reviewing your performance, we both decidced the best plan of action to correct the performance was to ........, I will be with you during the period of you completing the corrective action to assist as needed so the desired outcome is achieved. We will assess your performance on ____date during our assessment counseling."
The biggest part of all is actually communication, use of empathy (when appropriate) and having a candid conversation to correct whatever the performance gaps are. Most Soldiers really want to do a good job and they do not want to fail, you have to reach them (on their level) to get the maximum performance from them.
Sometimes its best when you take the directive approach: "you will accomplish the following .....and I will be there to inspect these requirements, you will meet me on ____date to conduct a follow up assessment to this counseling".
Sometimes its best for the counselee to use a participatory in the counseling session: "you decided the best plan of action was to accomplish x,y,z......I will be there to assist you in accomplishing these tasks, we will conduct our follow up assessment on _____date"
Sometimes its best to use a combined approach: "after reviewing your performance, we both decidced the best plan of action to correct the performance was to ........, I will be with you during the period of you completing the corrective action to assist as needed so the desired outcome is achieved. We will assess your performance on ____date during our assessment counseling."
The biggest part of all is actually communication, use of empathy (when appropriate) and having a candid conversation to correct whatever the performance gaps are. Most Soldiers really want to do a good job and they do not want to fail, you have to reach them (on their level) to get the maximum performance from them.
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COL Charles Williams
Michael Michael Thanks CSM... I understand, but comments/concerns had to do with how leaders (primarily officers for me) actually do, or don't do counseling. I believe among NCOs, we are much more methodical with counseling for event oriented counseling and performance and personal growth counseling. For Officers, I think we don't really take this seriously. Thanks for your insights.
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Reading through this discussion, I am struck with how, almost without exception (nod to COL Jean (John) F. B.), everybody has redefined counseling into a form-driven exercise in filing an interim EER/NCOER/OER, frequently just as a blatant prelude to subsequent disciplinary action.
Pardon me while I properly position my soapbox....
Prepare to copy. Message follows:
YOU DON'T NEED A FORM TO EFFECTIVELY COUNSEL A SOLDIER, AND YOU DON'T NEED TO BE SITTING DOWN EITHER.
COUNSELING IS MORE THAN GOAL SETTING AND PERFORMANCE DOCUMENTATION,
AT LEAST 90 PERCENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COUNSELING A SOLDIER RECEIVES SHOULD BE WHILE HE OR SHE IS WORKING AND SHOULD BE GIVING IN SMALL, EASILY COMPREHENDED PIECES. IF YOU AREN'T DOING THAT, SPENDING ONE WHOLE HOUR EACH MONTH READING A PIECE OF PAPER ISN'T GOING TO DO A DAMN BIT OF GOOD.
As I step off my soapbox, I will add that, in my stubborn, words-have-traditional-meanings view, anybody who defines counseling around filling out a form is very likely in need of a flag-rank-rated recto-cranial extractor. Counseling is not creating a paper trail to designed to justify busting somebody's fourth point of contact.
Counseling includes informal counseling, which is a key component in mentorship and effective individual training. If your immediate subordinate could not, at any formation, verbally summarize at least 90 percent of what you would put on his or her written evaluation at that point in time, you are failing to provide effective feedback, which means you are failing to adequately counsel that soldier.
Pardon me while I properly position my soapbox....
Prepare to copy. Message follows:
YOU DON'T NEED A FORM TO EFFECTIVELY COUNSEL A SOLDIER, AND YOU DON'T NEED TO BE SITTING DOWN EITHER.
COUNSELING IS MORE THAN GOAL SETTING AND PERFORMANCE DOCUMENTATION,
AT LEAST 90 PERCENT OF THE INDIVIDUAL COUNSELING A SOLDIER RECEIVES SHOULD BE WHILE HE OR SHE IS WORKING AND SHOULD BE GIVING IN SMALL, EASILY COMPREHENDED PIECES. IF YOU AREN'T DOING THAT, SPENDING ONE WHOLE HOUR EACH MONTH READING A PIECE OF PAPER ISN'T GOING TO DO A DAMN BIT OF GOOD.
As I step off my soapbox, I will add that, in my stubborn, words-have-traditional-meanings view, anybody who defines counseling around filling out a form is very likely in need of a flag-rank-rated recto-cranial extractor. Counseling is not creating a paper trail to designed to justify busting somebody's fourth point of contact.
Counseling includes informal counseling, which is a key component in mentorship and effective individual training. If your immediate subordinate could not, at any formation, verbally summarize at least 90 percent of what you would put on his or her written evaluation at that point in time, you are failing to provide effective feedback, which means you are failing to adequately counsel that soldier.
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COL Charles Williams
1LT William Clardy You, my friend, pay more attention to detail than I ever could on social media. I think the gist of this (my question/concern) is do we do it right, or is it just a drill? I always chose to do the right thing, but had very few bosses who did it right, some who tried, but were just not good at it... "So... Chuck... How do you think you are doing..."... and then many who just never did it.... I agree... many get wrapped around the forms... and we need to have good files because the 1SG or CSM is checking...
Heck, in my current (new) job, we are supposed to have 6 observations/evaluations a semester... and I had 5 of the 6 done last week... "Sorry, we got behind, and we just need to get these done..." or... Better stated... "We blew this... and we need to get these done as the Superintendent is all over us..."
Heck, in my current (new) job, we are supposed to have 6 observations/evaluations a semester... and I had 5 of the 6 done last week... "Sorry, we got behind, and we just need to get these done..." or... Better stated... "We blew this... and we need to get these done as the Superintendent is all over us..."
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COL Jon Thompson
I was using OER counseling as an example of how we do not understand counseling and use if effectively for leader development. The purpose of the OER support form and counseling is to set performance expectations and goals. This lets the subordinate know what he/she needs to focus on. I never said that this was the only way to counsel Soldiers. Effective counseling though needs to be a thought out process whether it is written or verbal. I do know that in the times when I did receive OER counseling at the start of the rating period, it made the interim sessions verbal or otherwise more meaningful.
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1LT William Clardy
COL Charles Williams, I partially blame my attention to detail on 9 years spent editing a newsletter on tax law -- which gives me an idea for a metaphor about where today's Army seems to be on the drill/real counseling continuum. I used to work with a tax attorney who lamented about how often he had to remind clients that they always had to spend more real money to create deductions than they would ever get deducted from their taxes. We seem to be in chronic danger of forgetting that the counseling should drive the recordkeeping, not the other way 'round.
COL Jon Thompson, I meant no major disparagement, I was merely using you as a convenient example of how record-centric the discussion seemed. I suspect that we differ more in degree than in kind. Except in truly exceptional instances, I consider the formal counseling (to include career counseling) to be of secondary importance to the continuous feedback which should define a solid command-subordinate relationship.
COL Jon Thompson, I meant no major disparagement, I was merely using you as a convenient example of how record-centric the discussion seemed. I suspect that we differ more in degree than in kind. Except in truly exceptional instances, I consider the formal counseling (to include career counseling) to be of secondary importance to the continuous feedback which should define a solid command-subordinate relationship.
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COL Charles Williams
SSG Robert Mustain hmmm. I thought my original question was clear and concise. Now, I find it is/was all over the map?
I believe counseling (listening more than you talk) is essential for leader development, but from what I have seen... we are not really very good at it.
I was not referring to techniques, I was referring to whether we put actual effort and energy into this, or just talk a good talk about it.
I think you reinforced my concern/point... we are not very good it this. We should be, because it matters.
I believe counseling (listening more than you talk) is essential for leader development, but from what I have seen... we are not really very good at it.
I was not referring to techniques, I was referring to whether we put actual effort and energy into this, or just talk a good talk about it.
I think you reinforced my concern/point... we are not very good it this. We should be, because it matters.
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