Posted on Sep 11, 2019
What does it mean that the chapter process for APFT failure has started?
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My son is 20 years old and has been active Army for over a year, 68W if it makes a difference. He's a good, smart kid but he doesn't have a lot of life experience and tends to go with the flow more than he should rather than asking the right questions to make sure that he understands what's going on. He has failed two, maybe even three, record APFT. He's actually in pretty good physical shape and has no trouble with the push ups or sit ups but can't complete the run due to extreme knee pain. To his credit, I can vouch for the fact that he has had knee pain while playing high school football for years. At the direction of the recruiter, this wasn't disclosed at enlistment. He tells me that the chapter process was started well over a month ago after the second failure. He has dragged his feet in going to be medically evaluated and also missed an earlier scheduled appointment due to being in the field. He was finally evaluated recently and referred for physical therapy. When asked by the physician if he wanted to be put on profile, my son told him no because as he later told me, "I don't want everyone thinking I'm an even bigger piece of shit."
His goal is to stay in for the remainder of his tour. Given his situation, would he probably have been better off asking to be put on profile? Am I wrong in thinking that without it, he's still going to be doing whatever PT his unit is doing and also will still have to retake the APFT if it's offered to him, all the while he's not any more likely to pass and is probably doing more damage to his knees than therapy is going to help?
Also, what happens now that the chapter process has started? Am I wrong that the only thing that could stop the chapter process is him passing the APFT? So if the chapter gets completed before he is diagnosed and treated, he's just out of luck? What's his best course of action at this point to try and keep himself enlisted?
His goal is to stay in for the remainder of his tour. Given his situation, would he probably have been better off asking to be put on profile? Am I wrong in thinking that without it, he's still going to be doing whatever PT his unit is doing and also will still have to retake the APFT if it's offered to him, all the while he's not any more likely to pass and is probably doing more damage to his knees than therapy is going to help?
Also, what happens now that the chapter process has started? Am I wrong that the only thing that could stop the chapter process is him passing the APFT? So if the chapter gets completed before he is diagnosed and treated, he's just out of luck? What's his best course of action at this point to try and keep himself enlisted?
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Posted 5 y ago
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Your son is not a kid, he's an adult. He made the adult decision to forego being placed on profile and having the option of taking an alternate event for his APFT. As a medic, he is especially aware of this fact, and it's especially easy for him to meet with the provider and get a profile while he recovers.
Now that the chapter process has started and he has no documented medical issues with his knee because he refused a profile, he will likely be separated. That is, unless he is referred to a med board, at which point he will still be separated, but medically.
The other option is that he goes and passes his APFT after getting evaluated. Good person or not, the Army will not retain people who can't pass their APFT repeatedly
Now that the chapter process has started and he has no documented medical issues with his knee because he refused a profile, he will likely be separated. That is, unless he is referred to a med board, at which point he will still be separated, but medically.
The other option is that he goes and passes his APFT after getting evaluated. Good person or not, the Army will not retain people who can't pass their APFT repeatedly
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CSM William Everroad
Bucky Daniels, He can not take a record APFT while on temporary profile. The temporary profile will only suggest to the commander what activities the Soldier should not do while recovering from injury or awaiting med-board.
If the separation packet has been started, the only recourse the Soldier might have is the commander's recommendation. Boards tend to retain those whose commander's have selected "retain" in the recommendation.
Even if he got a permanent profile, it only applies to tests taken in the future. He already failed 3 and that's why the separation packet was sent up. So if he thinks he will get a favorable recommendation, a permanent profile may help him finish out his tour without getting chaptered again due to PT failure.
SFC (Join to see) is correct, fieldex or not, he could have went to sick call on any day and immediately received a profile for his knee, almost no questions asked. This would have prevented the second or third failure while he was evaluated for fitness for duty. As a medic, he surely would have known this because most medics serve on sick call duty at some point in their career and watch the PA give out profiles like candy. Their busiest time is right before a unit record APFT.
If the separation packet has been started, the only recourse the Soldier might have is the commander's recommendation. Boards tend to retain those whose commander's have selected "retain" in the recommendation.
Even if he got a permanent profile, it only applies to tests taken in the future. He already failed 3 and that's why the separation packet was sent up. So if he thinks he will get a favorable recommendation, a permanent profile may help him finish out his tour without getting chaptered again due to PT failure.
SFC (Join to see) is correct, fieldex or not, he could have went to sick call on any day and immediately received a profile for his knee, almost no questions asked. This would have prevented the second or third failure while he was evaluated for fitness for duty. As a medic, he surely would have known this because most medics serve on sick call duty at some point in their career and watch the PA give out profiles like candy. Their busiest time is right before a unit record APFT.
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Bucky Daniels
CSM William Everroad - Thanks for that great info. It also creates a few other questions on my part. I've been trying to learn a little about the various steps of the separation process in an attempt to gauge where he is. He tells me that he recently went through "phase 1 physical"? Please excuse me if I'm butchering that but does that sound correct and does it offer any insight as to where he is?
Also, you mention a board and his Commander's recommendation. Does this mean there is a board or panel at some point that reviews his packet and makes a determination regarding separation or retention? And as far as his Commander, who would that be? I have asked him about his relationship with his immediate supervisor and how willing that person seems to help him and his reply was that this person "doesn't care because he's getting chaptered too"...for conduct/legal reasons as I understand it. That has no real bearing on my son's situation of course. I'm just curious who the recommendation that you speak of would refer to. Would my son be informed of this Commander's recommendation?
Yes, from everything I have learned to this point I think one of his greatest mistakes was not seeking a profile after his first failure. I can only assume his reasons for not at this point.
Also, you mention a board and his Commander's recommendation. Does this mean there is a board or panel at some point that reviews his packet and makes a determination regarding separation or retention? And as far as his Commander, who would that be? I have asked him about his relationship with his immediate supervisor and how willing that person seems to help him and his reply was that this person "doesn't care because he's getting chaptered too"...for conduct/legal reasons as I understand it. That has no real bearing on my son's situation of course. I'm just curious who the recommendation that you speak of would refer to. Would my son be informed of this Commander's recommendation?
Yes, from everything I have learned to this point I think one of his greatest mistakes was not seeking a profile after his first failure. I can only assume his reasons for not at this point.
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SFC (Join to see)
Bucky Daniels no, that is a terrible idea. Trying to outthink a system that is in place to protect a Soldier is exactly how injured people get chaptered for APFT while injured. The profiling system is there to protect him. If he doesn't take care of his injury he will just become more injured. Even if he passes this one, which he won't because he's becoming more injured each time, he would still need to go on a profile while working towards the goal of a permanent profile. He shouldn't try to outmaneuver a Soldier protection system, that's like saying you don't need a seat belt. Being on a profile will at least lend some legitimacy to his claim of having knee pain as opposed to just being a consistently poor runner. When the commander reviews his chapter packet he has to look at all the information in front of him. The Soldier saying his knee hurts is one thing, the Soldier being treated medically for it is another.
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CSM William Everroad
Bucky Daniels, the board I was referencing is the medical evaluation board. they would review his permanent profile paperwork to determine if he needs a fit for duty.
The separation packet is already underway, and will also carry a recommendation from the commander.
Aside from seeking medical treatment for his knee pain, he needs to speak with the commander and lay out all of his issues and desire to remain in service.
As SFC (Join to see) stated, there isn't a workaround at this point. Even if he got a temporary or permanent profile, it won't stop the packet, only inform the decision makers (Chain of command commanders) if it somehow gets included in the conversation.
But, from their point of view, they are reviewing a discharge packet for a Soldier who has no documented medical injury, no profile, and has failed three record APFTs.
If he doesn't speak to the commander about his issues, that is the conversation.
The separation packet is already underway, and will also carry a recommendation from the commander.
Aside from seeking medical treatment for his knee pain, he needs to speak with the commander and lay out all of his issues and desire to remain in service.
As SFC (Join to see) stated, there isn't a workaround at this point. Even if he got a temporary or permanent profile, it won't stop the packet, only inform the decision makers (Chain of command commanders) if it somehow gets included in the conversation.
But, from their point of view, they are reviewing a discharge packet for a Soldier who has no documented medical injury, no profile, and has failed three record APFTs.
If he doesn't speak to the commander about his issues, that is the conversation.
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Keeping quiet about his knee pain? Not smart.
Wants to stay in but refuses a profile due to stigma? Not smart.
Dragging his feet with medical evaluations? Not smart.
The best chance your son has is to get his knees evaluated and see if he is eligible for a P2 (permanent) profile. If he is, and gets one, he can take the alternate cardio event for the APFT. While the Chapter is in it's process (and it's a lengthy process), if he takes a Record APFT and passes, his Commander can elect to recall the Chapter. If the Commander recalls the Chapter, then he will be good to go (as long as he continues to pass the APFT). If he doesn't get the permanent before the Chapter is complete, then yes he will be just plain out of luck and he will be packing his bags. Also, with no profile, and Chapter pending, he will continue to do normal PRT with his unit...causing further injury to his knee(s). Which is REALLY NOT SMART.
So....his best course of action is to suck up his pride (because his pride is literally killing his time in the military), get his knee evaluated and get a permanent profile in order to pass his test and hope the commander rescinds the Chapter.
Wants to stay in but refuses a profile due to stigma? Not smart.
Dragging his feet with medical evaluations? Not smart.
The best chance your son has is to get his knees evaluated and see if he is eligible for a P2 (permanent) profile. If he is, and gets one, he can take the alternate cardio event for the APFT. While the Chapter is in it's process (and it's a lengthy process), if he takes a Record APFT and passes, his Commander can elect to recall the Chapter. If the Commander recalls the Chapter, then he will be good to go (as long as he continues to pass the APFT). If he doesn't get the permanent before the Chapter is complete, then yes he will be just plain out of luck and he will be packing his bags. Also, with no profile, and Chapter pending, he will continue to do normal PRT with his unit...causing further injury to his knee(s). Which is REALLY NOT SMART.
So....his best course of action is to suck up his pride (because his pride is literally killing his time in the military), get his knee evaluated and get a permanent profile in order to pass his test and hope the commander rescinds the Chapter.
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Bucky Daniels
Thank you for the response. I largely blame the recruiter for my son failing to disclose the knee pain but that's a well-beaten horse and irrelevant at this point. I completely agree that my son's outlook, timeliness, and overall handling of all this hasn't been up to par. I do believe he could pass the APFT right now if allowed to do the bike event rather than the run or that he could probably pass the normal APFT once he is properly evaluated, diagnosed, and treated.
As a follow-up, are there certain milestones that he can expect that would give an indicator of where he is in the chapter process?
As a follow-up, are there certain milestones that he can expect that would give an indicator of where he is in the chapter process?
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MSG (Join to see)
Bucky Daniels - Yes.
He is to be counselled by the Commander informing him he is being submitted for Chapter. After that, there are checklist items the Command must meet/complete. Part of this checklist is to seek medical evaluation. Another is seeking legal counsel (offered and can be refused by your son if he so chooses to). Your son will be kept up to date by his Commander and NCO's as to where he is in the process. As for place of blame, your son and recruiter are 50/50 on the blame game. Yes, the recruiter gave bad advice, but your son didn't HAVE to follow that advice. But as you said, it's a well beaten dead horse at this point.
He is to be counselled by the Commander informing him he is being submitted for Chapter. After that, there are checklist items the Command must meet/complete. Part of this checklist is to seek medical evaluation. Another is seeking legal counsel (offered and can be refused by your son if he so chooses to). Your son will be kept up to date by his Commander and NCO's as to where he is in the process. As for place of blame, your son and recruiter are 50/50 on the blame game. Yes, the recruiter gave bad advice, but your son didn't HAVE to follow that advice. But as you said, it's a well beaten dead horse at this point.
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Bucky Daniels
Thank you very much for the additional information. I agree with your assessment regarding my son's failure to disclose during enlistment.
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Your son failed to disclose important medical issues to the Army. If he withheld information, he did so knowingly and as an adult.
The reason there is a fitness test is to ensure that Soldiers retain the foundational level of fitness required to handle the rigors of combat. Bad knees and ruck sacks don’t mix. His only recourse is to come clean and see if his knees are treatable (he has the right to seek medical evaluation). Whether or not the Army retains him should, his condition be treatable is up to certain regulations and policies, it is not based on him as an individual.
The Army, whose job it is to fight Wars, has rules of conduct as well, without them the military would be an unruly band of individuals instead of a cohesive Team of Warriors.
I am sorry to say (for you, not your son) that he lied to the Army on more than one occasion. He needs to come clean and see if his conduct, other than fitness since he entered service is good enough for the Army to determine he is physically and ethically fit to serve. Mom, he is a Man!
The reason there is a fitness test is to ensure that Soldiers retain the foundational level of fitness required to handle the rigors of combat. Bad knees and ruck sacks don’t mix. His only recourse is to come clean and see if his knees are treatable (he has the right to seek medical evaluation). Whether or not the Army retains him should, his condition be treatable is up to certain regulations and policies, it is not based on him as an individual.
The Army, whose job it is to fight Wars, has rules of conduct as well, without them the military would be an unruly band of individuals instead of a cohesive Team of Warriors.
I am sorry to say (for you, not your son) that he lied to the Army on more than one occasion. He needs to come clean and see if his conduct, other than fitness since he entered service is good enough for the Army to determine he is physically and ethically fit to serve. Mom, he is a Man!
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Bucky Daniels
Thank you for your reply. I agree with your assessment regarding his options and I believe that is the point at which he has found himself. I think his major hurdle now is his time frame.
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