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Probably have been asked before, but I'm going to ask it again. Since the Marines have announced the first female F35C pilot, Erie, Pennsylvania native 1st Lt. Catherine Stark (Semper Fi, Lt!) a thought crossed my mind again. Bear with me, my mind works weirdly.
Should our officers be enlisted first? I know this is a Heinleinian way of thinking, but it's rare in my experience being in and around the military (my dad retired after 30 as a full bird) that you can find a "hot-shit" junior officer who was not prior service. In fact, you can find plenty of officers who are absolutely horrible at their jobs in the O1-O3 arena. What makes a college degree the deciding choice in saying, "That young man/woman is going to be a leader." As far as I can tell, with the exception of military science classes, there isn't any degree that teaches leadership. True leadership is learned and earned, not taught. In fact, this was the first thing the SNCOs told us during Corporal's Course. I personally think that you should be at least a junior NCO/PO before you try your hand at being an officer.
I'm willing to entertain all thoughts on this matter.
***UPDATE: I want to thank everyone for their responses and anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately, I believe that this will always be an anecdotal conversation. I especially appreciate the senior leadership, enlisted and commissioned, that has responded. As a former junior NCO who has gone into management in the civilan world on multiple occassions, I have had the chance to look back and wonder how the various SNCOs and Zeroes I have worked with/for (there's a marked difference in those to quantifiers, I firmly believe) would handle whatever situation I'm in.
Should our officers be enlisted first? I know this is a Heinleinian way of thinking, but it's rare in my experience being in and around the military (my dad retired after 30 as a full bird) that you can find a "hot-shit" junior officer who was not prior service. In fact, you can find plenty of officers who are absolutely horrible at their jobs in the O1-O3 arena. What makes a college degree the deciding choice in saying, "That young man/woman is going to be a leader." As far as I can tell, with the exception of military science classes, there isn't any degree that teaches leadership. True leadership is learned and earned, not taught. In fact, this was the first thing the SNCOs told us during Corporal's Course. I personally think that you should be at least a junior NCO/PO before you try your hand at being an officer.
I'm willing to entertain all thoughts on this matter.
***UPDATE: I want to thank everyone for their responses and anecdotal evidence. Unfortunately, I believe that this will always be an anecdotal conversation. I especially appreciate the senior leadership, enlisted and commissioned, that has responded. As a former junior NCO who has gone into management in the civilan world on multiple occassions, I have had the chance to look back and wonder how the various SNCOs and Zeroes I have worked with/for (there's a marked difference in those to quantifiers, I firmly believe) would handle whatever situation I'm in.
Leadership
NCOs
Officers
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 35
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Well. Interesting concept - but unsustainable in the real world. While my first knee jerk thought was yes it would be nice for all officers to be enlisted first - but making the enlisted ranks the complete training ground for all officers fails to see the fact that we need superb lifelong NCOs. The NCO is the backbone of the army and they should actually “train” the officer corps. My NCOs In Vietnam actually saved my life with their keen insights and warnings. I do think all officers should have to have started in the combat arms as lieutenants as too many support officers have little idea what the combat arms goes through. That being said, the officer corps must have EDUCATION and few people in the volunteer army generation want to postpone their college education for a foxhole and climb up the OCS ladder. The present commissioning sources allow for all people to become an officer. Yes there are some shitty young lieutenants but frankly I blame their NCOs for that. They are not mentoring their officers. A really good NCO can perform miracles on creating good officers. Get your education and apply for a commission and the army and the corporation worlds will welcome you aboard. Everyone in the army should be a mentor and trainer. Even a private can mentor a slick sleeve. Step up to your potential. Just my thoughts.
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AB Edward Mondini
The first comment I’ve read in this forum where the word “mentor” is mentioned more than once. Outstanding. Maybe the term will finally return from exile into mainstream usage without the groans & smirks?
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Sir, running with the tangential thought you posed... If all Officers need to go combat arms first, what do we do for PLT Leaders in the support MOSs? I don't see CPTs who have already spent PL time and XO time in the Infantry welcoming a return to PL time now that the are Signal Officers (or maintenance, medical, MI, etc.).
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COL Gary Gresh
SFC Casey O'Mally
SFC O’Mally your concerns are well spoken. But it was not my intent to either make every combat support person a platoon leader or to return captains to platoon leader positions. All current officers are in compliance with current accession policies. They would not be affected. What I meant was to return the officer accessions process to its pre- 1980 polices where all officers had to pull at least a one year DETAIL to a combat arms branch. At the time the combat arms branches had been expanded to include infantry armor artillery engineer Mi and Signal corps. They did not have to be a platoon leader but rather serve in any capacity. It educated new officers in just what the army was like at the base level. I firmly believe that officers who pulled a detail in such a way just made better combat support officers later as they understood the importance their combat support branch was to the base army. Simply my opinion but obviously the army felt it was not needed and mostly did away with the combat arms detail. It is only used now to place young lieutenants whose accession branch have no authorized slots for the young officer.
SFC O’Mally your concerns are well spoken. But it was not my intent to either make every combat support person a platoon leader or to return captains to platoon leader positions. All current officers are in compliance with current accession policies. They would not be affected. What I meant was to return the officer accessions process to its pre- 1980 polices where all officers had to pull at least a one year DETAIL to a combat arms branch. At the time the combat arms branches had been expanded to include infantry armor artillery engineer Mi and Signal corps. They did not have to be a platoon leader but rather serve in any capacity. It educated new officers in just what the army was like at the base level. I firmly believe that officers who pulled a detail in such a way just made better combat support officers later as they understood the importance their combat support branch was to the base army. Simply my opinion but obviously the army felt it was not needed and mostly did away with the combat arms detail. It is only used now to place young lieutenants whose accession branch have no authorized slots for the young officer.
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From my personal experience, the best officers I've served under were prior-enlisted; which is not to say that I haven't served under great officers who were not. So based off of that, I would agree with some sort of prior enlisted time as a requirement to commission. However, this assumes that prior-enlistment time is always beneficial and creates great leaders, which is simply false: how many SNCO's have you known that should've never pinned on a rocker, much less crossed rifles under their stripe? The benefit to enlisted time, for an officer I believe, is to see from the perspective of their subordinates. To go through what they go through and not be fed from a silver spoon as soon as they're out of OCS and the Service Academies serve that purpose.
Here are a couple of thoughts I have:
1) Sure there's the lack of experience in a particular field from a professional standpoint which is why a lot of junior officers get hate, but the same comes from a PFC who just got to the fleet, there needs to be time to develop. The education in this case really helps people learn how to think critically which is necessary of all officers. The education isn't meant to instill leadership ability which is why officers are selected and the process is competitive (obviously we know people slip through the cracks).
2) If we're for mandatory enlisted time, how long? I would argue that sometimes even one enlistment ins't enough to develop a brand new NCO into a great leader. So even if we stay at one enlistment, we'd have to push back max age to commission as not every MOS would have the opportunity to go to school while in service (grunts for example) which would lead to some retention problems as people would be hesitant to come back.
3) I guess my main argument is that this point assumes that prior-enlisted time builds leadership, which isn't necessarily true - the biggest pro of enlisted time would be the opportunity to experience what your subordinates experience, which again isn't necessarily a requirement for good leadership.
I apologize if my input isn't as linear as I would like it to be, I just wanted to contribute to the conversation to get it going as I'm also curious about other people's perspectives.
Here are a couple of thoughts I have:
1) Sure there's the lack of experience in a particular field from a professional standpoint which is why a lot of junior officers get hate, but the same comes from a PFC who just got to the fleet, there needs to be time to develop. The education in this case really helps people learn how to think critically which is necessary of all officers. The education isn't meant to instill leadership ability which is why officers are selected and the process is competitive (obviously we know people slip through the cracks).
2) If we're for mandatory enlisted time, how long? I would argue that sometimes even one enlistment ins't enough to develop a brand new NCO into a great leader. So even if we stay at one enlistment, we'd have to push back max age to commission as not every MOS would have the opportunity to go to school while in service (grunts for example) which would lead to some retention problems as people would be hesitant to come back.
3) I guess my main argument is that this point assumes that prior-enlisted time builds leadership, which isn't necessarily true - the biggest pro of enlisted time would be the opportunity to experience what your subordinates experience, which again isn't necessarily a requirement for good leadership.
I apologize if my input isn't as linear as I would like it to be, I just wanted to contribute to the conversation to get it going as I'm also curious about other people's perspectives.
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MSG Danny Mathers
A few of officers when I was in Big Army were dick heads that thought they knew eveything. It all depended how long they were NCOs; Others were outstanding. It all depends on the individual. I do believe overall the best officers come from the academies. Special Operations in my time was a different story. All the officers no matter if prior enloisted or OCS, ROTC and the Military Academy were second to none.
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CPT Richard Baynes
Sgt Kinyaevsky - couldn't agree with you more! I was enlisted for 4 years, 5 if you count OCS - but felt I could be a better officer than the ones I had that were ROTC or whatever...I believe the important part of all that was that I NEVER forgot those SNCOs and the guidance I received as an enlisted soldier - it proved invaluable as a junior officer (01-02) and as a company commander - you're no one without your top subordinates.
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