Posted on Feb 20, 2015
Are you a liar and would you defend it? Who's pants are on fire?
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In light of the discussion about officers lying and being willing to defend it; what are your thoughts?
This thread is meant to survey to the RallyPoint community.
White lies are still lies, they should never replace tact and constructive criticism but that is another discussion.
Omission is not lying if you are not supposed to talk about it.
Yes no body is completely free from lying but lying as part of you military profession is something different.
This thread is meant to survey to the RallyPoint community.
White lies are still lies, they should never replace tact and constructive criticism but that is another discussion.
Omission is not lying if you are not supposed to talk about it.
Yes no body is completely free from lying but lying as part of you military profession is something different.
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 10
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We need to look at the driving force brought out in this piece, not the FACT that information is semi-factual at times. The overwhelming amount of tracking, checking, taskings, inspections and programs in place in the Army is common knowledge at the tactical level. When I was a Troop Commander, it wasn't nearly as bad as it is now. We have instituted so many mandatory training requirements on top of METL focused training requirements on top of inspections and taskings that it is impossible to get them all done to teh standard they are written to. So...you chose which ones you are going to do. The right way from that point on is to tell your higher command that you aren't going to get to the other ones. We do this. Sometimes, the higher command comes back and provides priorities in order to focus you from that point. If they don't, then they leave it up to their subordinates to determine the priorities, which is fine by me. If the staff work isn't done at the highest levels to determine the amount of time it takes to accomplish the tasks in the Annual Training Guidance and all of the FRAGOs that follow, they have failed, and that is what this article is about. If you leave it up to me at the Squadron level, I will decide what I am not going to do. I will tell you about it, and I'm not going to lie about what I am not going to do, but it is often referred to as "selective disobedience." Rarely do we report we are 100% on anything because it's simply not possible. Any command that requires a 100% completion on something has a commander that doesn't understand where he came from. I PCS or ETS 30 Soldiers a month. I generally get the same amount of new Soldiers. If we have SHARP training that month, my numbers are NEVER going to get to 100%. I might be that guy who reports the real numbers and gets screwed by the guys that lie about it. Better that, and give my higher commanders the right picture than tell them a lie and make them think we are better than we are. Maintenance is the same way. Our goal is 90%, but if we aren't there, I'll explain why because it's usually a money or a system problem. If I tell them we are at 85% and that we are experiencing a parts delay, a Division Commander can fix it. He makes 90% a goal in order to let him know when he needs to get personally involved. If you lie about it, his CCIR is now irrelevant because you want to look good instead of doing your FU(&ing job. Truth. Right now. With background information. Someday it might get me fired. Until then, it's the only way the Army will work correctly.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I would vote your comment up a 1,000 times if I could. You got right to the problem.
I agree, Sir, thank you. We are avoiding the truth and lying to ourselves. Lying is wrong but the system has made telling the truth difficult. The system while not rewarding lying, it encourages it and rewards those who do it well enough not to get caught.
I agree, Sir, thank you. We are avoiding the truth and lying to ourselves. Lying is wrong but the system has made telling the truth difficult. The system while not rewarding lying, it encourages it and rewards those who do it well enough not to get caught.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Good God, Sir as I continue to read your post it rings so true. Bad staff work is creating the problem, commanders have more power than the staff but the staff is just important and therefore chilling on staff is not good staff work.
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MAJ (Join to see)
False reporting only makes the problem worse by not giving the Higher Command an opportunity to fix problems may be only he can at his level. Other leaders lying are like have a bunch of paper gazelles racing the real gazelles. They may look like they are in better shape then the real on to the herd leader but what happens to paper gazelles when the big cat is on the hunt? They get left behind. False reporting seems to have replaced doing ones job. Being a better deceptive briefer has replaced attention to detail.
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Capt Richard I P.
Deciding who, what, when, where, how and why to trust is the quintessential human problem. I could tell you I never lie. But I can't prove it. You'll have to trust me. By trusting me you make yourself vulnerable to a lie.
True/False matches the essential dichotomy of most things: on/off; black/white; hot/cold; energy/not energy; on/off; 0/1. But like many of these there is a gradation in between that becomes difficult to judge. Recognizing the difference is an intense challenge, really it's our life's work.
This will quickly connect to philosophy in general and Objectivism in particular.
“People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I’ve learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one’s reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one’s master, condemning oneself from then on to faking the sort of reality that person’s view requires to be faked…The man who lies to the world, is the world’s slave from then on…"
― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
True/False matches the essential dichotomy of most things: on/off; black/white; hot/cold; energy/not energy; on/off; 0/1. But like many of these there is a gradation in between that becomes difficult to judge. Recognizing the difference is an intense challenge, really it's our life's work.
This will quickly connect to philosophy in general and Objectivism in particular.
“People think that a liar gains a victory over his victim. What I’ve learned is that a lie is an act of self-abdication, because one surrenders one’s reality to the person to whom one lies, making that person one’s master, condemning oneself from then on to faking the sort of reality that person’s view requires to be faked…The man who lies to the world, is the world’s slave from then on…"
― Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged
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MAJ (Join to see)
Excellent Ayn Rand quote.
For some reason I think of compassionate bigotry.
Or the deception of altruists that claim to be selfless, when in reality they are asking someone else to make the sacrifice.
For some reason I think of compassionate bigotry.
Or the deception of altruists that claim to be selfless, when in reality they are asking someone else to make the sacrifice.
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I can't say never lied period but I never knowingly lied when I wasn't ordered too.
Here is me being very honest.
As a young child, I hung out with thieves and became very good at it and part of that required me to lie. But then I got caught and burned really bad. I saw certain forms of stealing as victimless but I had lied so much, I lied to myself. I had a realization and when I realized thieves steal from each other and honor among thieves is not honor. I was very young and I changed. I do not like thieves and I was criminal and changing my disposition toward crime made me a target. I began to defend others and I hated bullies. When others have trouble telling the truth, I enjoy telling it. Stealing is wrong but stealing from a buddy means the problem has become pathological.
Here is me being very honest.
As a young child, I hung out with thieves and became very good at it and part of that required me to lie. But then I got caught and burned really bad. I saw certain forms of stealing as victimless but I had lied so much, I lied to myself. I had a realization and when I realized thieves steal from each other and honor among thieves is not honor. I was very young and I changed. I do not like thieves and I was criminal and changing my disposition toward crime made me a target. I began to defend others and I hated bullies. When others have trouble telling the truth, I enjoy telling it. Stealing is wrong but stealing from a buddy means the problem has become pathological.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Yes, I lied as kid typo, thanks for bringing to my attention. Even George Washington lied.
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