Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What is behind the POTUS mention of the Crusades and ISIS?
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Many have offered reasons, opinions and conjecture as to why the POTUS would mention this? Some say he writes his own speeches, or at least edits them, why would this be important?
What is the driving force in his constant downplaying of ISIS and the threat they pose? Any ideas?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/ [login to see] 001/why-president-obama-compared-christianity-to-isis/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips
What is the driving force in his constant downplaying of ISIS and the threat they pose? Any ideas?
http://video.foxnews.com/v/ [login to see] 001/why-president-obama-compared-christianity-to-isis/?intcmp=obnetwork#sp=show-clips
Barack Obama
ISIS
Islam
Religion
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 40
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Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades
Which was worse? Watch the data and you decide. This video is part of Bill Warner's astounding lecture: "Why we are afraid. A 1400 years secret": part of a m...
I doubt that any of us will ever really know "what is behind the POTUS mention of the Crusades..." while responding to the barbarism of ISIS. Many have speculated in this discussion and elsewhere. The only thing I can be certain of is that his response leaves me (and many Americans) frustrated. The President of the United States is supposed to be our voice to the rest of the world and his words reflect nothing of my feelings on this matter. I suspect by his comments, Cpl Jeff N. is feeling frustrated. Indeed, it seems apparent that President Obama is blaming us for the crimes committed by ISIS. He is mitigating their guilt by asserting that they are merely acting in defense of our past crimes of which they are the victims.
Others in this discussion thread have provided links to historical evidence that run counter to the President's argument. I especially appreciated SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA's link ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo ) Yes, some Crusaders used the confusion of war to commit crimes, some to steal treasure, others to give vent to psychopathic tendencies, and a few for reasons we'll never discern. However, by the evidence presented in this YouTube video, there is no discernible moral equivalency between Jihad and the Crusades as the President would have us believe.
I am tempted to agree with SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas as he speculates that the President is merely signalling that he is a Muslim, but that would imply that our Commander-in-Chief is too cowardly to publicly proclaim his true religious beliefs. Could that be true?
Yes CMC Robert Young , bad things have happened in the past. Terrible things happened during the Inquisition in the name of Christ. But what does that have to do with us. The United States didn't exist then. It wasn't even a dream at that time. Certainly Columbus sailed the ocean blue at the time of the Inquisition and discovered the fringes of the land in which freedom would be plant, but the spark of Liberty wouldn't be kindled until several hundred years later.
And, yes, Mr. President, slavery existed in America and found apologists among some who anointed themselves as Christians. Tragically, a political party sprang up to defend slavery and attempt to enslave blacks even beyond the end of slavery using Jim Crow laws and domestic terrorism. However, Mr. President, if you were half the scholar you claim to be, you would know that it was your party, the Democrats, who must bear the brunt of that charge. It was the Republican Party that came into existence with the explicit purpose of ending slavery. It was a Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, who led the fight to end slavery. It was a united Republican Party that garnered just enough Democrats to overcome the Democratic majority in Congress to pass the Civil Rights legislation. It is the GOP that counts among its members many of the black heroes that you purport to celebrate including Dr. Martin Luther King.
Maybe, just maybe, the high horse is being ridden by the man who is lecturing us in an apparent attempt to cover the sins of Islam.
That being said, I must admit that I stand with PO3 (Join to see) when he says "I have no clue why he does the things he does."
Neither do I.
Do you?
Others in this discussion thread have provided links to historical evidence that run counter to the President's argument. I especially appreciated SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA's link ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo ) Yes, some Crusaders used the confusion of war to commit crimes, some to steal treasure, others to give vent to psychopathic tendencies, and a few for reasons we'll never discern. However, by the evidence presented in this YouTube video, there is no discernible moral equivalency between Jihad and the Crusades as the President would have us believe.
I am tempted to agree with SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas as he speculates that the President is merely signalling that he is a Muslim, but that would imply that our Commander-in-Chief is too cowardly to publicly proclaim his true religious beliefs. Could that be true?
Yes CMC Robert Young , bad things have happened in the past. Terrible things happened during the Inquisition in the name of Christ. But what does that have to do with us. The United States didn't exist then. It wasn't even a dream at that time. Certainly Columbus sailed the ocean blue at the time of the Inquisition and discovered the fringes of the land in which freedom would be plant, but the spark of Liberty wouldn't be kindled until several hundred years later.
And, yes, Mr. President, slavery existed in America and found apologists among some who anointed themselves as Christians. Tragically, a political party sprang up to defend slavery and attempt to enslave blacks even beyond the end of slavery using Jim Crow laws and domestic terrorism. However, Mr. President, if you were half the scholar you claim to be, you would know that it was your party, the Democrats, who must bear the brunt of that charge. It was the Republican Party that came into existence with the explicit purpose of ending slavery. It was a Republican President, Abraham Lincoln, who led the fight to end slavery. It was a united Republican Party that garnered just enough Democrats to overcome the Democratic majority in Congress to pass the Civil Rights legislation. It is the GOP that counts among its members many of the black heroes that you purport to celebrate including Dr. Martin Luther King.
Maybe, just maybe, the high horse is being ridden by the man who is lecturing us in an apparent attempt to cover the sins of Islam.
That being said, I must admit that I stand with PO3 (Join to see) when he says "I have no clue why he does the things he does."
Neither do I.
Do you?
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CPT Jack Durish
Although, as I have commented earlier, it is impossible to "know" a person's intent, I must concede that in law a jury is allowed to infer a person's intent by their actions. Thus, I must also accept SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas 's inference as valid. To be fair, I believe that he can get away with it while I may be subject to negative judgments if I were to openly infer the same.
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SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
@SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas - for some reason I cannot tag you!
I agree 100%, my comment meant to me the issue is not his religion. You hit my theory on the head; that he is trying to use the socialist following he has gathered as a folk to follow Islam through making the benefits of Socialism and Islam one in the same and to use the "underdog card" saying both Islam and the downtrodden Socialist dependent are the same and must fight the big bad capitalists/West.
I agree 100%, my comment meant to me the issue is not his religion. You hit my theory on the head; that he is trying to use the socialist following he has gathered as a folk to follow Islam through making the benefits of Socialism and Islam one in the same and to use the "underdog card" saying both Islam and the downtrodden Socialist dependent are the same and must fight the big bad capitalists/West.
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SSG Jim Foreman
SMSgt Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA- I agree with you 100@. I believe the POTUS is a closet Muslim. He has set out to methodically destroy our Republic and replace it with a socialistic government. I only pray to God we survive two more years.
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This is his standard approach to radical islamists and jihadists. He is unable to confront reality. He reached back centuries to try to make a comparison that is simply off the mark. He then tried to tie these events to Jim Crow laws, the civil rights movements (perhaps slavery, I don't recall). It is the ultimate grope of a coward.
He apparently doesn't know the history of the crusades or 19th and 20th century America. He seems to forget that it was Christian organizations that fought slavery, ran the underground railroad and were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement at places like Harpers Ferry. John Brown was an avowed Christian and a Calvinist for example.
The civil rights movement, in many ways, relied and worked with Christian churches to advance the case. This doesn't mean every Christian was in full support but many were and organizations like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (SBLC) were at the forefront. MLK was a Christian minister, I guess that makes him a terrorist in Obama's eyes.
We are going to have a hard time living down these types of remarks. It is embarrassing.
He apparently doesn't know the history of the crusades or 19th and 20th century America. He seems to forget that it was Christian organizations that fought slavery, ran the underground railroad and were at the forefront of the abolitionist movement at places like Harpers Ferry. John Brown was an avowed Christian and a Calvinist for example.
The civil rights movement, in many ways, relied and worked with Christian churches to advance the case. This doesn't mean every Christian was in full support but many were and organizations like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (SBLC) were at the forefront. MLK was a Christian minister, I guess that makes him a terrorist in Obama's eyes.
We are going to have a hard time living down these types of remarks. It is embarrassing.
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Cpl Jeff N.
Capt Whitney Davis Let's compare and contrast the example offered then test it's verasity.
During the days of slavery and later Jim Crow and the civil rights movement, there were some that attempted to use a racial supremacy argument along with Christianity to support their position. What you saw in response was Christian churches and other organizations form abolotionist groups, work the underground railroad and oh yeah, we fought a civil war to (in part) undo the injustice of slavery. Also, many Christian organizations were very involved in the civil rights movement. Many of it's leaders were Christians including MLK Jr.
Fast forward to today and look at the injustice being done in the name of islam. Where are the clerics? Where is the underground railroad freeing hostages and evacuating refugees? Where is the outrage in the middle east? I see no one taking to arms (seriously) to stop the jihadists. Jordan is finally hacked off and fully engaged most are doing as little as possible.
The comparison is weak and only tells part of the story of what happened here under slavery, Jim Crow and during the civil rights movelment. Obama chose only to attempt to point out those that might have used their religion falsely and no mention of all of the good done by the majority of Christians. It is a lie of omission of the facts. A partial truth is just a lie.
During the days of slavery and later Jim Crow and the civil rights movement, there were some that attempted to use a racial supremacy argument along with Christianity to support their position. What you saw in response was Christian churches and other organizations form abolotionist groups, work the underground railroad and oh yeah, we fought a civil war to (in part) undo the injustice of slavery. Also, many Christian organizations were very involved in the civil rights movement. Many of it's leaders were Christians including MLK Jr.
Fast forward to today and look at the injustice being done in the name of islam. Where are the clerics? Where is the underground railroad freeing hostages and evacuating refugees? Where is the outrage in the middle east? I see no one taking to arms (seriously) to stop the jihadists. Jordan is finally hacked off and fully engaged most are doing as little as possible.
The comparison is weak and only tells part of the story of what happened here under slavery, Jim Crow and during the civil rights movelment. Obama chose only to attempt to point out those that might have used their religion falsely and no mention of all of the good done by the majority of Christians. It is a lie of omission of the facts. A partial truth is just a lie.
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Capt Whitney Davis
Cpl Jeff N., the point wasn't that religion has solely been used as an excuse to do terrible things. Indeed, it hasn't. Many good things have come from religion as well. Ghandi's non-violent protest philosophy, Dr. King's voice in the civil rights movement, and Mother Theresa's work with orphans in Calcutta all come to mind as exemplary instances when religion was the excuse for wonderful acts. That being said, religion has also been used to justify slavery, genocide, and war. So have many other excuses.
The President’s point, and mine now, was that we need to judge individuals and not the institutions that they claim. You or I, or anyone, can warp religion to justify atrocities. We can also use its teachings to inspire us to make the world a better place. Our actions are what matter, and what need to be judged, not why we say we take those actions.
As to your claim that no one using the name of Islam is speaking out against this, I urge you to read the articles I’ve posted at the end of this respone. They are from the Free Muslims Coalition website. The Coalition is a “nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era.”
Furthermore, I fought with a great number of Iraqi and Afghan Muslims that had taken up arms against fundamentalist terrorism. There are 20 air strikes a day being conducted from Jordan right now into Syria, Jordan is primarily Muslim. Many of the Syrian groups fighting ISIS in Syria are Muslim. There are more examples, but I think those answer your question. No, no central religious authority has raised an Army and started battling ISIS. That isn’t really possible today, though. It hasn’t been since the Middle Ages.
http://www.freemuslims.org/issues/terrorism.php
http://www.freemuslims.org/blog/?id=407
I'll also leave you with this picture of moderate Muslims protecting Christians after a horrific church bombing in Pakistan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/muslims-form-human-chain-pakistan_n_4057381.html
The President’s point, and mine now, was that we need to judge individuals and not the institutions that they claim. You or I, or anyone, can warp religion to justify atrocities. We can also use its teachings to inspire us to make the world a better place. Our actions are what matter, and what need to be judged, not why we say we take those actions.
As to your claim that no one using the name of Islam is speaking out against this, I urge you to read the articles I’ve posted at the end of this respone. They are from the Free Muslims Coalition website. The Coalition is a “nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era.”
Furthermore, I fought with a great number of Iraqi and Afghan Muslims that had taken up arms against fundamentalist terrorism. There are 20 air strikes a day being conducted from Jordan right now into Syria, Jordan is primarily Muslim. Many of the Syrian groups fighting ISIS in Syria are Muslim. There are more examples, but I think those answer your question. No, no central religious authority has raised an Army and started battling ISIS. That isn’t really possible today, though. It hasn’t been since the Middle Ages.
http://www.freemuslims.org/issues/terrorism.php
http://www.freemuslims.org/blog/?id=407
I'll also leave you with this picture of moderate Muslims protecting Christians after a horrific church bombing in Pakistan:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/08/muslims-form-human-chain-pakistan_n_4057381.html
Our Positions | Free Muslims Coalition
The Free Muslims believes that fundamentalist Islamic terrorrepresents one of the most lethal threats to the stability of thecivilized world. There is no room for terrorism in the modern worldand the United States should take a no-tolerance stance onterrorism in order to avoid another tragedy, along the lines of9-11.
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Cpl Jeff N.
I'm not suggesting all muslims are okay with the jihad but the jihad is a tennant of the muslim/arab world. ISIS is the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. The Syrians are fighting them because they are trying to take out the current Syrian regime, pretty simple self preservation going on there. Jordan is on board now because their captured pilot was brutally murdered. Let's see what their staying power looks like. Iraq is being invaded too, they have to fight or die.
When the president attempts to link together events from 800 years ago to events occurring now that is a non sequitur. His line of thinking is offensive to anyone that undestands the history of the abolitionist movements and the civil rights movements in this country which were spearheaded by Christians and Christian organizations.
Where are the clerics in the middle east standing up in their mosques taking on the jihadists? You can find some that are willing to take up arms but the reality is most are silent on the matter of jihad. They know the jihadists will show up and kill them even if they wanted to speak out. They watched what happened in Iraq when we left and tens of thousands have been murdered by the jihadists.
I know there are moderate voices but they are almost completely inneffective. Yelling from here (U.S.) about moderating is not going to get anthing done.
When the president attempts to link together events from 800 years ago to events occurring now that is a non sequitur. His line of thinking is offensive to anyone that undestands the history of the abolitionist movements and the civil rights movements in this country which were spearheaded by Christians and Christian organizations.
Where are the clerics in the middle east standing up in their mosques taking on the jihadists? You can find some that are willing to take up arms but the reality is most are silent on the matter of jihad. They know the jihadists will show up and kill them even if they wanted to speak out. They watched what happened in Iraq when we left and tens of thousands have been murdered by the jihadists.
I know there are moderate voices but they are almost completely inneffective. Yelling from here (U.S.) about moderating is not going to get anthing done.
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Capt Whitney Davis
Before I start Cpl Jeff N., let me say that I enjoy this “conversation” and the civility with which it is being conducted. It’s nice to be able to disagree with someone and discuss it without falling into personal offense. While I don’t agree with all of your views I enjoy trying to see things from your perspective, and appreciate your efforts to make it clear. Thank you.
On to the debate: yes, the Crusades were a century ago, but that doesn’t make them any less relevant. Not to the point that we should judge individuals not the institutions they claim. Also, why would citing a historically accurate example of the perverse use of religion be offensive? Uncomfortable, sure; offensive, I don't think so. Ignoring the fighting in Arabia, The Crusades were used to excuse pogroms against Jewish people in Europe, the Spanish Inquisition was also used to persecute Jews; All in the name of Christian God. I’m sure there were those that disagreed and spoke out. I’m equally sure that they were just as drowned out as moderate Muslims are now.
I would never argue that those examples mean Christianity is a religion of hatred towards Jews. I doubt you would either. All the President is asking is that you apply that same level of understanding to a different religion. Is ISIS awful, yes; do they speak for all Muslims, no. It’s as simple as that. We wouldn’t condemn all white people because the KKK is racist. We shouldn’t condemn all Muslims because ISIS is awful.
I cited an example of moderate American Muslims, but there are moderates around the world speaking out. It’s a safe bet that Malala Yousafzai is a moderate, as were the Pakistani Muslims protecting a Christian church and church members after a horrific bombing. Malala, in particular, has spoken loudly and clearly against extremists. Those moderates would disagree with your claim that jihad is a tenant of Islam (to be clear, they define jihad differently; as an internal battle against sin). The moderates in Egypt threw out a fundamentalist government. You may have to extend you antenna a little farther to hear them, but most of Islam is not supporting terrorism.
That said, fear of death and torture is a pretty legitimate reason to think twice about standing up against something. It is not the fault of moderates in the Middle East that their governments cannot protect them. It requires incredible bravery to risk your life for your ideals. Bravery very few individuals possess, hence the worldwide acclaim and Nobel Peace Prize for Mala Yousafzai.
On to the debate: yes, the Crusades were a century ago, but that doesn’t make them any less relevant. Not to the point that we should judge individuals not the institutions they claim. Also, why would citing a historically accurate example of the perverse use of religion be offensive? Uncomfortable, sure; offensive, I don't think so. Ignoring the fighting in Arabia, The Crusades were used to excuse pogroms against Jewish people in Europe, the Spanish Inquisition was also used to persecute Jews; All in the name of Christian God. I’m sure there were those that disagreed and spoke out. I’m equally sure that they were just as drowned out as moderate Muslims are now.
I would never argue that those examples mean Christianity is a religion of hatred towards Jews. I doubt you would either. All the President is asking is that you apply that same level of understanding to a different religion. Is ISIS awful, yes; do they speak for all Muslims, no. It’s as simple as that. We wouldn’t condemn all white people because the KKK is racist. We shouldn’t condemn all Muslims because ISIS is awful.
I cited an example of moderate American Muslims, but there are moderates around the world speaking out. It’s a safe bet that Malala Yousafzai is a moderate, as were the Pakistani Muslims protecting a Christian church and church members after a horrific bombing. Malala, in particular, has spoken loudly and clearly against extremists. Those moderates would disagree with your claim that jihad is a tenant of Islam (to be clear, they define jihad differently; as an internal battle against sin). The moderates in Egypt threw out a fundamentalist government. You may have to extend you antenna a little farther to hear them, but most of Islam is not supporting terrorism.
That said, fear of death and torture is a pretty legitimate reason to think twice about standing up against something. It is not the fault of moderates in the Middle East that their governments cannot protect them. It requires incredible bravery to risk your life for your ideals. Bravery very few individuals possess, hence the worldwide acclaim and Nobel Peace Prize for Mala Yousafzai.
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Bill Warner, PhD: Jihad vs Crusades
Which was worse? Watch the data and you decide. This video is part of Bill Warner's astounding lecture: "Why we are afraid. A 1400 years secret": part of a m...
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MSgt Robert Pellam
First.. I agree the President should not try and compare ISIS, to the Crusades.
Second.. Coming from a Historian in training. the video by PhD Bill Warner is a falsification of what happened by half truths, and misrepresentations, and is completely political in nature.
Bill Warner is a PhD in Physics. Why he is doing a History Video is beyond me. He is also trying to compare the entire expansion of Islam which occurs from 630 AD to today, to a narrow time band of conflicts refereed to as the Crusades. In other words I don't believe POTUS should have compared them and I Know Bill Warner shouldn't.
I have been taught Middle Eastern History, World History, European History by Christian Individuals (I go to a Christian College) with PhD's in European and Military History. You wan to know about the Crusades or Islam, go to Wikipedia; My professor would kill me for saying that but its better then the crap coming from PhD Bill Warner. Don't listen to these agenda pushing politicians.
Second.. Coming from a Historian in training. the video by PhD Bill Warner is a falsification of what happened by half truths, and misrepresentations, and is completely political in nature.
Bill Warner is a PhD in Physics. Why he is doing a History Video is beyond me. He is also trying to compare the entire expansion of Islam which occurs from 630 AD to today, to a narrow time band of conflicts refereed to as the Crusades. In other words I don't believe POTUS should have compared them and I Know Bill Warner shouldn't.
I have been taught Middle Eastern History, World History, European History by Christian Individuals (I go to a Christian College) with PhD's in European and Military History. You wan to know about the Crusades or Islam, go to Wikipedia; My professor would kill me for saying that but its better then the crap coming from PhD Bill Warner. Don't listen to these agenda pushing politicians.
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SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA
MSgt Robert Pellam - I appreciate the candor, wonderfully written and it brought a smile to my face! Thank you!
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SFC (Join to see)
Since we are talking about History of the "West" and the "Middle East" fighting each other, what happened before the rise of Islam? What about those Greeks and Romans? Oh, those are to be glorified. When it is the "Middle East", it needs to be chastised. Why? Plundering, murdering, torturing, and rape are wrong no matter how you look at it.
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