Posted on Apr 18, 2019
Can a platoon sgt tell a female soldier that she is required to wear a bra when in civilians?
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I am a female in the army current on rotation over seas. I was just told by my team leader that my platoon Sgt (female) told him that I need to start wearing a bra while off duty. in the clothes that I wear, you can't see my nipple or even the color of my nipple nor do I wear revealing or low cut shirts. At the most, you can just see that I am simply not wearing one. Nowhere in any reg does it say it’s required not even in uniform. Can she tell me to do so?
Civilians
DA Pam 670-1
Women in the Military
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 404
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The only conceivable reason I could come up with is the fact that you are US military in a foreign country and your platoon sgt feels your lack of a bra could be offensive to the locals. In any event, you deserve more information from your platoon sergeant directly without putting your team leader in what could be an awkward situation.
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PFC Jade Stone
1stSgt Edward Jackson I so agree. We Americans have to learn to pick and choose our battles with a bit of common sense. We should not have to have a discussion about wear or not to wear a Bra. Still, I have to suspect dress code is still taught in boot camp!
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PFC Jade Stone
A1C Joseph Fox Moral? Low Moral if I have to wear a Bra? Forgive my ignorance, but I think there need to be discussion on professionalism, which is very much lacking in our military today.
I own a company; I have a dress code and conduct code. If you start trouble in the community or even beat up your spouse, your fired and if you come to my company without a bra, you get sent home to put one off on with a verbal warning. My employees are to sell the product, not themselves.
I learned professionalism in the Army, that has served me well in my civilian life, as a nurse and owner of my own company. Therefore, don't get why we have to have this discussion on to wear or not wear a Bra!
I own a company; I have a dress code and conduct code. If you start trouble in the community or even beat up your spouse, your fired and if you come to my company without a bra, you get sent home to put one off on with a verbal warning. My employees are to sell the product, not themselves.
I learned professionalism in the Army, that has served me well in my civilian life, as a nurse and owner of my own company. Therefore, don't get why we have to have this discussion on to wear or not wear a Bra!
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LTJG Kevin Matthews
I've been out for some time, but I recall situations like this were normally handled directly by the female nearest the individual in the chain of command, which in this case would be the plt sgt. It sounds to me like this PSG (female) just might be testing to see if the team leader (male) is comfortable addressing such an issue with a female subordinate.
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SrA John Monette
A1C Joseph Fox - what does the orange man's lack of morals have to do with this question?
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84
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Wow! I've read all the comments so far. Let me start out with... this is a damn minefield.
I can make my comments from the safety of not being on active duty.
I do not care what any hetero-sexual male says to the contrary. We are programmed to notice the secondary sexual characteristics of a female. Trust me it isn't the nipple color that catches our eye. The motion of a well endowed female's breasts will attract my attention from at least 200 yards. If you expect me (and other hetero-sexual males) not to notice, you are out of your mind. I bet if you asked my wife, she would say she can pick out that information from even farther away. I know because there is virtually no time between me noticing and the open handed slap to the back of my head.
However, that programming does not give me license to be an idiot. One of the differences between humans and animals, between men and children, is impulse control. It is my opinion that from a military point of view, your bralessness in civvies is not a problem, unless it is a problem. You have not given us enough detail for us to make a valid assessment. My guess is that you would only know that it is a problem, if you were intentionally making it a problem, (Jessica Rabbit comes to mind... "I'm not bad... they just draw me that way.")
If your platoon sergeant feels it is a military problem, she blew it. She told your male team leader to "navigate the minefield" and walked away, taking the mine detector with her when she left. She let down you AND the male team leader.
If it affects the way your viewed by the soldiers around you, it is more a personal problem for you than a "military" problem. She cannot order away the perceptions of those around you, only their inappropriate comments and actions. She OWES you a bit of "sisterly advice." So she still blew it.
If it is a problem because of the culture of your overseas station, it is still a military problem; but it would probably be handled with less discomfort all around, if she addressed it, because she is a woman.
If it is not any of the above, it is her problem.
I can make my comments from the safety of not being on active duty.
I do not care what any hetero-sexual male says to the contrary. We are programmed to notice the secondary sexual characteristics of a female. Trust me it isn't the nipple color that catches our eye. The motion of a well endowed female's breasts will attract my attention from at least 200 yards. If you expect me (and other hetero-sexual males) not to notice, you are out of your mind. I bet if you asked my wife, she would say she can pick out that information from even farther away. I know because there is virtually no time between me noticing and the open handed slap to the back of my head.
However, that programming does not give me license to be an idiot. One of the differences between humans and animals, between men and children, is impulse control. It is my opinion that from a military point of view, your bralessness in civvies is not a problem, unless it is a problem. You have not given us enough detail for us to make a valid assessment. My guess is that you would only know that it is a problem, if you were intentionally making it a problem, (Jessica Rabbit comes to mind... "I'm not bad... they just draw me that way.")
If your platoon sergeant feels it is a military problem, she blew it. She told your male team leader to "navigate the minefield" and walked away, taking the mine detector with her when she left. She let down you AND the male team leader.
If it affects the way your viewed by the soldiers around you, it is more a personal problem for you than a "military" problem. She cannot order away the perceptions of those around you, only their inappropriate comments and actions. She OWES you a bit of "sisterly advice." So she still blew it.
If it is a problem because of the culture of your overseas station, it is still a military problem; but it would probably be handled with less discomfort all around, if she addressed it, because she is a woman.
If it is not any of the above, it is her problem.
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SGT (Join to see)
SGT(P) (Join to see) I know you have no reference point but I will tell you this. There is no better feeling then taking that bra off.
Now I don't fall into the big girl camp with my 38DD but at the end of the day when that bra comes off and those straps are no longer cutting into my shoulders its a relief. Going braless is my choice.
Now I don't fall into the big girl camp with my 38DD but at the end of the day when that bra comes off and those straps are no longer cutting into my shoulders its a relief. Going braless is my choice.
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Maj John Bell
SGT (Join to see) - It is absolutely your choice. I don't think I said anything that denies that.
But, fair or not, the world is not perfect and imperfect people form imperfect opinions on superficial issues and those opinions influence their social and professional interactions.
We don't know why the PltSgt felt the soldier needed a word or two. In all three cases I mentioned, I believe it is in the PltSgt's scope of responsibility to offer some advice. The soldier needs to know the potential social or professional consequences when she decides to follow the advice or ignore it. Leaders don't knowing let their people walk into minefields unaware.
It is no different than when I find out a married Pvt, with 2 kids, is going to sign a high-interest, long-term loan for a muscle car he can't afford. I can't order him not to buy the car, but I can do my level best to make clear the probable outcome of an unwise purchase.
But, fair or not, the world is not perfect and imperfect people form imperfect opinions on superficial issues and those opinions influence their social and professional interactions.
We don't know why the PltSgt felt the soldier needed a word or two. In all three cases I mentioned, I believe it is in the PltSgt's scope of responsibility to offer some advice. The soldier needs to know the potential social or professional consequences when she decides to follow the advice or ignore it. Leaders don't knowing let their people walk into minefields unaware.
It is no different than when I find out a married Pvt, with 2 kids, is going to sign a high-interest, long-term loan for a muscle car he can't afford. I can't order him not to buy the car, but I can do my level best to make clear the probable outcome of an unwise purchase.
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I've read the comments, and I am stunned by many, and my post here is as much to the other posters as it is to SPC Chastity Bolden.
In the Army a Platoon Sergeant (PSG) is generally a Sergeant First Class: a Senior NCO, Like a Navy Chief Petty Officer, a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant, or an AirForce Master Sergeant. In the Army, a Senior NCO is responsible for the actions and behaviors of their subordinate Soldiers, and for the leadership development of junior NCO's and the counsel and mentorship to the Platoon Leader, typically a 2nd Lieutenant (O-1).
Regardless of where in the world this is occurring, regardless of the gender of the PSG or Team Leader, regardless of the type of Command, and regardless of the presence or lack of Command Policy Memorandums:
1. Civilian attire during non-duty periods is still subject to the Commander's discretion. This guidance is not illegal, immoral, or unethical. Civilian attire is a privilege- not a right. A Commander could require soldiers to be on PASS to wear civilian attire. In some Commands, the Commander even directs sleeping attire- eg. the APFT Uniform with undergarments.
2. Senior NCO's job is to anticipate and execute the will of the Commander. If a Senior NCO's assessment is that a Soldier's attire is not appropriate- negatively impacts readiness, order, discipline, health or safety- then the Senior NCO has the authority to give corrective direction. Not every policy is necessary to be written down, and not every order must be written down. Failure to follow a legal order- that's an order that is not illegal, immoral, or unethical- may still receive Non-Judicial punishment. If you push the lack of written policy- it will result in a written policy. Be careful what you wish for, once something becomes a written policy it is likely more restrictive, eg. banning civilian attire without a pass, and becomes punitive in nature. Your peers will not appreciate you.
3. It is likely that the PSG has the experience that supports the decision and likely would have the support of the Commander. Commanders rely on the experience of Senior NCOs. Commanders expect Senior NCO's to be professionals, to be competent, and to take care of business without the Officers needing to be involved. There is an entire Creed about it that I estimate a PSG is more familiar with than the SPC is. ( https://www.army.mil/values/nco.html )
4. If the Soldier assesses that the PSG's guidance is discriminatory, then the Soldier should respectfully request- through the 1SG- to exercise the Commander's Open Door Policy.
5. And finally- there is nothing wrong with a PSG directing a Squad Leader/ Team Leader to provide guidance or corrections to an enlisted Soldier. It is leadership. The Team Leader benefits from performing a leadership function that may be awkward or uncomfortable. These experiences are necessary for leaders to develop on their path to Senior NCO ranks. The PSG shouldn't be expected to have every interaction with every issue with every enlisted soldier, that is contrary to the purpose of subordinate leaders.
Just my 3 cents worth.
In the Army a Platoon Sergeant (PSG) is generally a Sergeant First Class: a Senior NCO, Like a Navy Chief Petty Officer, a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant, or an AirForce Master Sergeant. In the Army, a Senior NCO is responsible for the actions and behaviors of their subordinate Soldiers, and for the leadership development of junior NCO's and the counsel and mentorship to the Platoon Leader, typically a 2nd Lieutenant (O-1).
Regardless of where in the world this is occurring, regardless of the gender of the PSG or Team Leader, regardless of the type of Command, and regardless of the presence or lack of Command Policy Memorandums:
1. Civilian attire during non-duty periods is still subject to the Commander's discretion. This guidance is not illegal, immoral, or unethical. Civilian attire is a privilege- not a right. A Commander could require soldiers to be on PASS to wear civilian attire. In some Commands, the Commander even directs sleeping attire- eg. the APFT Uniform with undergarments.
2. Senior NCO's job is to anticipate and execute the will of the Commander. If a Senior NCO's assessment is that a Soldier's attire is not appropriate- negatively impacts readiness, order, discipline, health or safety- then the Senior NCO has the authority to give corrective direction. Not every policy is necessary to be written down, and not every order must be written down. Failure to follow a legal order- that's an order that is not illegal, immoral, or unethical- may still receive Non-Judicial punishment. If you push the lack of written policy- it will result in a written policy. Be careful what you wish for, once something becomes a written policy it is likely more restrictive, eg. banning civilian attire without a pass, and becomes punitive in nature. Your peers will not appreciate you.
3. It is likely that the PSG has the experience that supports the decision and likely would have the support of the Commander. Commanders rely on the experience of Senior NCOs. Commanders expect Senior NCO's to be professionals, to be competent, and to take care of business without the Officers needing to be involved. There is an entire Creed about it that I estimate a PSG is more familiar with than the SPC is. ( https://www.army.mil/values/nco.html )
4. If the Soldier assesses that the PSG's guidance is discriminatory, then the Soldier should respectfully request- through the 1SG- to exercise the Commander's Open Door Policy.
5. And finally- there is nothing wrong with a PSG directing a Squad Leader/ Team Leader to provide guidance or corrections to an enlisted Soldier. It is leadership. The Team Leader benefits from performing a leadership function that may be awkward or uncomfortable. These experiences are necessary for leaders to develop on their path to Senior NCO ranks. The PSG shouldn't be expected to have every interaction with every issue with every enlisted soldier, that is contrary to the purpose of subordinate leaders.
Just my 3 cents worth.
The following is the NCO Creed (Non Commissioned Officer Creed)
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MSgt Kerry Lundy
SFC Michael Barnett - If it is not in writing how will your subordinates know if they are in violation? So what you are saying is there is no need for published regs we just make them up as we go along.
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CW4 (Join to see)
MSgt Kerry Lundy no, that's not what I'm saying, not even close. The regs are written specifically to give Commanders lattitude within their authority to determine unwritten things large and small, too include, the uniform. The Senior NCO, exercised judgement and leadership and directed a subordinate NCO to give corrective instructions.
The Soldier can appeal to the Commander through the open-door policy. If the Commander determines this issue isnt worth the effort to resolve, the Commander can simply publish the policy: NO CIVILIAN CLOTHES in
The Company area, unless departing or returning from pass or leave. There you go. It is written.
I didn't say it shouldn't be written, I said be careful what you ask for.
If we demand that every detail be written, you create an environment where Commanders have no authority, NCOs have no authority, and when people face a decision lacking explicit written directions, they lack the ability or the desire to perform an assessment of the situation and make decisions.
Maybe that's how it works in the AF, MSgt, but I can assure you that's not how it works in the Army. We want Commanders and Subordinates to exercise their creativity and intelect to assess problems, make decisions, and apply solutions.
If the Senior NCO was wrong in the Commander's judgement, The Commander can give more clarity of intent to the Senior NCOs, and let them get back to handling their business.
The Soldier can appeal to the Commander through the open-door policy. If the Commander determines this issue isnt worth the effort to resolve, the Commander can simply publish the policy: NO CIVILIAN CLOTHES in
The Company area, unless departing or returning from pass or leave. There you go. It is written.
I didn't say it shouldn't be written, I said be careful what you ask for.
If we demand that every detail be written, you create an environment where Commanders have no authority, NCOs have no authority, and when people face a decision lacking explicit written directions, they lack the ability or the desire to perform an assessment of the situation and make decisions.
Maybe that's how it works in the AF, MSgt, but I can assure you that's not how it works in the Army. We want Commanders and Subordinates to exercise their creativity and intelect to assess problems, make decisions, and apply solutions.
If the Senior NCO was wrong in the Commander's judgement, The Commander can give more clarity of intent to the Senior NCOs, and let them get back to handling their business.
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SFC Michael Barnett
MSgt Kerry Lundy absolutely not, but this is covered by regs. The commander puts it on the training schedule! Not a regulations can be covered. Commonsense dictates some regulations!
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MSgt Kerry Lundy
CW4 (Join to see) - Since I flunked mind reading 101 it is a good thing I chose the USAF.
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