Posted on Dec 25, 2014
Do you think the military should let an E-7 commission as an officer without a college degree?
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So I put to you, Should and E-7 be allowed to transfer to the officer corp as an 0-1 if he gets command sponsorship without a college degree? There is some army's that allow this when they get to that level of senior NCO, what do you think?
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Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 341
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E7 to officer is not currently possible and I would argue not recommended for the following reasons:
- College Degree. Currently a college degree is a requirement to become an officer. Used to be that NCOs to officers were allowed four years after becoming an officer to get a degree but this set up the individual for failure during GWOT in my opinion since the ability to obtain the degree was limited due to operational OPTEMPO.
- Broadening. Current strategic thought is that higher education and broadening are critical to creating senior leaders who can think deeply and strategically. An E7 to officer without a college degree would be missing a key element necessary to operate within the human domain and the humen dimension.
- Experience. An E7 is obviously very experienced but this is generally tactical experience only. Other skills, knowledge and attributes are required than just experience. The NCO to officer could be successful as a company grade but then what? They would be at a disadvantage compared to their peers for promotion and, in today's environment, continuation of service.
- Overall allowing this could be good for the Army but would definitely be unfair to the individual unless current guidance is changed. Need to think 3-4 moves ahead on a proposal like this rather than just one move ahead.
- College Degree. Currently a college degree is a requirement to become an officer. Used to be that NCOs to officers were allowed four years after becoming an officer to get a degree but this set up the individual for failure during GWOT in my opinion since the ability to obtain the degree was limited due to operational OPTEMPO.
- Broadening. Current strategic thought is that higher education and broadening are critical to creating senior leaders who can think deeply and strategically. An E7 to officer without a college degree would be missing a key element necessary to operate within the human domain and the humen dimension.
- Experience. An E7 is obviously very experienced but this is generally tactical experience only. Other skills, knowledge and attributes are required than just experience. The NCO to officer could be successful as a company grade but then what? They would be at a disadvantage compared to their peers for promotion and, in today's environment, continuation of service.
- Overall allowing this could be good for the Army but would definitely be unfair to the individual unless current guidance is changed. Need to think 3-4 moves ahead on a proposal like this rather than just one move ahead.
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Col John Madison
Sgt Chris Fisher - That is, essentially, right. However, in this technical and administrative age it is fundamental to be able to communicate and navigate. Hence, all E-6's and above, and all officers should be required to pass a comprehensive English proficiency examination...period. A thorough written and oral examination should be done. There are far too many who cannot write efficiently, nor communicate effectively by written or oral means. If you cannot do that, you shouldn't be in any leadership position. The numbers of people in leadership roles who stumble and mumble when speaking is pathetic. If they do their jobs very well, then leave them where they are at, but NOT in places where command or public speaking is required.
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MSgt Sidney Lichter
Sgt Chris Fisher - In the AF--I'm now retired over 30 years--that's what Squadron Officer School is supposed to teach the young college grads--the military ethos. Even the non-line officers need a good corps of NCOs to keep him/her on the straight and narrow. When I was a SNCO, I had the opportunity to work with near-graduates who were destined to become Chaplains, in an informal situation. One tongue-in-cheek "manual" I suggested to them was "The Conversion of Chaplain Cohen", the story of a graduate rabbi who grows into a Chaplain.
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LTC (Join to see)
Disagree. In the first place it depends on who the E-7 is. One wouldn't say that to Raymond S. McClain who was not college graduate but rose to command a Corps in WWII...He came up through the ranks and was great officer. There are thousands of other examples. Many already have associates or BA or higher degrees than the people who lead them. Additionally, to say a E-7 is limited to only tactical level war is rather ridiculous. News flash so are 2d Lieutenants. And how did Colonels and Generals get their start...as 2d Lieutenants operating at the tactical level of war not operational or strategic.
We need to judge our leaders not on not just how many degrees they have or what universities or colleges they attended but what kind of leaders they are and how effective they are. I've seen plenty of E-7s better able to lead a Battalion than some of the LTCs commanding one and that goes for Brigades as well especially in toxic leader situations. Quite honestly ability not education should be the standard. If a senior NCO has gotten his AD or BA and/or has taken Army education to increase is skills he should be considered BA degree or not. And he or she should be allow to be promoted up to O6 just like everyone else. When I came in the 60s we had a lot of Mustang officers...former enlisted who because commissioned. And they generally were a lot better than their just out of college 2d lieutenants. That went for Captains and above as well. I never served with a bad mustang. And to a man they were far superior to their college grad peers. They walked in the door actually knowing what to do. Bottom line here is that MOST of the officer corps operate at the Tactical or Operational level of war...very few operate at a strategic level.
If I had may way we wouldn't commission any officer unless they had a least 4 years of enlisted service to begin with.
We need to judge our leaders not on not just how many degrees they have or what universities or colleges they attended but what kind of leaders they are and how effective they are. I've seen plenty of E-7s better able to lead a Battalion than some of the LTCs commanding one and that goes for Brigades as well especially in toxic leader situations. Quite honestly ability not education should be the standard. If a senior NCO has gotten his AD or BA and/or has taken Army education to increase is skills he should be considered BA degree or not. And he or she should be allow to be promoted up to O6 just like everyone else. When I came in the 60s we had a lot of Mustang officers...former enlisted who because commissioned. And they generally were a lot better than their just out of college 2d lieutenants. That went for Captains and above as well. I never served with a bad mustang. And to a man they were far superior to their college grad peers. They walked in the door actually knowing what to do. Bottom line here is that MOST of the officer corps operate at the Tactical or Operational level of war...very few operate at a strategic level.
If I had may way we wouldn't commission any officer unless they had a least 4 years of enlisted service to begin with.
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FN Poppa Phil
If this is to go thru as the military then you will have to demote all the warrant officers or put them out early. Brains are good but practical experience is much better.
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This is a bit of an apples and oranges discussion. I think the laws of supply and demand help form the requirements we lay out for various grades. One can change the dates to an earlier time and you'll find general officers in their late 20's. So, the tiny details on what's require to qualify as an officer are comparatively moot WRT why these grades of O/SNCO/NCO even exist in the first place. Let's not forget the fundamental differences between the intended roles of commissioned officers and SNCOs/NCOs. One is not simply the natural continuation of the other. The military requires line managers who are tactical and technical experts at the performance of specific and often critical battlefield functions. (This doesn't matter whether it is a sustainment function like fueling, feeding, moving, and building or direct combat functions like shooting, killing, and blowing things up.) These functional experts (functional leaders) are your NCO and SNCO corps.
Commissioned officers, instead, serve a coordinating role like an orchestra conductor. They sit in a position where they can best see, hear, and be exposed to all these various technical issues. We pay him or her to then employ all these together in complementary and coordinated ways. Orchestra conductors don't and can't play all the instruments and if they do play one or two, then they likely don't do it as well as the guy who does it all the time. The "Zero" is not nor should they EVER be the single expert on a specific skill set, but they need to proficient enough to know the most effective ways to get these varied skill sets to function together and achieve an assigned mission. Mustangs make great officers and we should encourage enlisted personnel to serve as officers. They bring detailed insight into the performance of "the orchestra" because they've been there. Those officers without prior enlisted experience must work harder to obtain this level of insight.
As for today, I think the 1SG is identifying a process that may already exist in other services. Our Navy buddy above pointed out the LDO program as one example. Additionally, SNCOs whose conduct and performance warrants their service as officers are already anointed as "Warrant Officers". Although those Limited Duty Officers and Warrants officer are typically restricted to performance within a specific technical field and will not typically be found conducting an entire orchestra.
If an E-7 has demonstrated mastery of his skill area, that's great. If he or she wants to serve an officer, then he/she must first demonstrate skill in assimilating and communication a wide variety of subject areas that are outside of his/her lane. A college degree is the current metric we use for this. This could change (as was inferred above), but as for today it’s used as the check box because it is readily available, recognized, and fairly standard across the country. (Why reinvent the wheel?)
PS- it also helps us spell words like "corps" correctly. (Sorry 1SG, that was just a friendly jab. Feel free to return fire.)
Happy New Year
Commissioned officers, instead, serve a coordinating role like an orchestra conductor. They sit in a position where they can best see, hear, and be exposed to all these various technical issues. We pay him or her to then employ all these together in complementary and coordinated ways. Orchestra conductors don't and can't play all the instruments and if they do play one or two, then they likely don't do it as well as the guy who does it all the time. The "Zero" is not nor should they EVER be the single expert on a specific skill set, but they need to proficient enough to know the most effective ways to get these varied skill sets to function together and achieve an assigned mission. Mustangs make great officers and we should encourage enlisted personnel to serve as officers. They bring detailed insight into the performance of "the orchestra" because they've been there. Those officers without prior enlisted experience must work harder to obtain this level of insight.
As for today, I think the 1SG is identifying a process that may already exist in other services. Our Navy buddy above pointed out the LDO program as one example. Additionally, SNCOs whose conduct and performance warrants their service as officers are already anointed as "Warrant Officers". Although those Limited Duty Officers and Warrants officer are typically restricted to performance within a specific technical field and will not typically be found conducting an entire orchestra.
If an E-7 has demonstrated mastery of his skill area, that's great. If he or she wants to serve an officer, then he/she must first demonstrate skill in assimilating and communication a wide variety of subject areas that are outside of his/her lane. A college degree is the current metric we use for this. This could change (as was inferred above), but as for today it’s used as the check box because it is readily available, recognized, and fairly standard across the country. (Why reinvent the wheel?)
PS- it also helps us spell words like "corps" correctly. (Sorry 1SG, that was just a friendly jab. Feel free to return fire.)
Happy New Year
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MSgt Roger Lalik
LtCol Matthew Rajkovich - Just try a vinegar based BBQ sauce on the crayons. Makes a world of difference. :)
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SSG Charlie Davis
I entered the USASA within months of being out of high school on a four year enlistment agreement in September of 1966. Seven of us from Hawaii (three in USASA) scored very high on the GT's and were selected to apply for OCS pending completion of BCT at Fort Ord. All four Hawaii enlistees declined and we three ASA guys were rejected from application by the USASA because of our four-year commitment to the agency. I’m not sure if the term, “Shake and Bake OCS” was a term yet in 1966, but that’s what it was later referred to. I'll never know if I dodged the big one or not. I think all seven of us in the selected group were high school graduates. Two of my best buddies in High school, applied for, tested and were accepted to helicopter training a Ft. Rucker, Alabama as flight cadets after BCT and went on to fly UH1 and Cobra helicopters over several tours in the RVN, both leaving the service as WO3's. I’m guessing a whole lot of these “right out of high school 90-day wonders” survived, came back, and made meaningful contributions to society after their service. One of my pilot friends became a MD and settled in Oklahoma. The other became a highly respected professional photographer in Montana and Wyoming.
Back in the day when I worked closely with the military as a forensic firearm and tool mark examiner as well as a crime scene supervisor, I developed a somewhat close association with the medical personnel at the Tripler Army Medical Center (TAMC) and other service units here on O'ahu in which we shared a mutual interest in forensic collaboration. I can tell you that a vast majority of the enlisted medical specialists and assistants I worked with on many cases, had BA, BS and/or MS degrees or were working towards their degree. One that I know of was an E-4/SP4 with a PhD! All of these folks were within the ranks of Specialists to E-7 with, of course, medical officers assigned to lead the unit. When you talked with these folks, none aspired to become officers - they wanted to work in their field of expertise and career goal for the future - I'm pretty much guessing.
The times are a changing and an emphasis is placed heavily on a college degree. Gotta tell you though, I know a bunch of college graduates in the science community and even the law enforcement community who couldn’t find their ass with both hands and a flashlight!
Whenever I look for a subtle analogy in discussions like this, I always defer to the less than likely, highly improbable, but none the less entertaining film entitled, “Heartbreak Ridge.” Gunny Sergeant Highway, the gravelly voiced, blood pissing, no-nonsense, multi-war combat veteran, with the ten-decks of ribbons topped off with the CMH over the Silver and Bronze Stars, Navy Cross, Purple Heart with multiple cluster and all the rest of the campaign and meritorious awards, pitted against his pipsqueak platoon leader, a company commander and academy graduate fresh out of Supply (and admittedly good at it), Major Butt-Head with his National Defense and Good Conduct ribbons along with his side-kick, SSgt Butt-Hugger (who you never see all decked out) from the rival platoon.
All of us know that the only event in the entire film which was even remotely accurate was that there really was an invasion of Grenada – the rest was complete and utter BS. My point is the analogy drawn between Highway and Major Butt-Head. Which one would you consider to have the tactical and leadership skills and of whose mere present evokes a desire to follow and win? (1): GySgt Highway, with a BA from the U of Korea and a MA from the U of RVN; or, (2): The proud to have been from supply – guy – with the academy ring? Just an analogy, now - Just askin’ . . .
Look, I know a bunch of Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard – even some Air Force officers - who have advanced degrees in this and that, but I only know of two who actually attended the US Army Command and General Staff College and the Army War College in Carlisle Pennsylvania. Of the four general officers I have personally known, only two had attended the Military Academy. A Navy Captain, my wife’s uncle, graduated the USNA in 1941 and was immediately assigned to the USS Wasp, CV-7. He did survive the sinking on September 15, 1942, but much of the war was over for him used up in rehabilitation hospitals after witnessing the second of three torpedoes strike the ship right below where he was standing at that moment. He retired a Navy Captain.
My father-in-law, just started business school in New York in 1940 heard the war drums sounding and joined the AAC as a flight officer. He survived several B-17 crashes and being badly shot up in the waist window of a B-17 and winning a machinegun duel (.50 Cal vs. 7.7 mm) with a Kawanishi H6K – Mavis Flying Boat over the Pacific as a ride-along searching for the bad guys shelling their airfield with a howitzer from another island. He came back after the war to finish school at Kenyon College then join a printing company owned and operated by a Japanese National here in Honolulu! He retired an Air Force Colonel and the president of the printing company!
The rest of the officers, I believe were either Mustangers or ROTC types before going active like my father, who was a RCAF flight cadet in Canada in 1940. When the war broke out, he was repatriated back to flight school in the Navy where he was originally rejected. He never had a college degree with the exception of some credits. He retired as a Nuclear Power Engineer, US Navy Shipyard, Pearl Harbor Sub-Base, Hawaii. Just my opinion and SWAG, but still . . . just sayin’ . . .
Back in the day when I worked closely with the military as a forensic firearm and tool mark examiner as well as a crime scene supervisor, I developed a somewhat close association with the medical personnel at the Tripler Army Medical Center (TAMC) and other service units here on O'ahu in which we shared a mutual interest in forensic collaboration. I can tell you that a vast majority of the enlisted medical specialists and assistants I worked with on many cases, had BA, BS and/or MS degrees or were working towards their degree. One that I know of was an E-4/SP4 with a PhD! All of these folks were within the ranks of Specialists to E-7 with, of course, medical officers assigned to lead the unit. When you talked with these folks, none aspired to become officers - they wanted to work in their field of expertise and career goal for the future - I'm pretty much guessing.
The times are a changing and an emphasis is placed heavily on a college degree. Gotta tell you though, I know a bunch of college graduates in the science community and even the law enforcement community who couldn’t find their ass with both hands and a flashlight!
Whenever I look for a subtle analogy in discussions like this, I always defer to the less than likely, highly improbable, but none the less entertaining film entitled, “Heartbreak Ridge.” Gunny Sergeant Highway, the gravelly voiced, blood pissing, no-nonsense, multi-war combat veteran, with the ten-decks of ribbons topped off with the CMH over the Silver and Bronze Stars, Navy Cross, Purple Heart with multiple cluster and all the rest of the campaign and meritorious awards, pitted against his pipsqueak platoon leader, a company commander and academy graduate fresh out of Supply (and admittedly good at it), Major Butt-Head with his National Defense and Good Conduct ribbons along with his side-kick, SSgt Butt-Hugger (who you never see all decked out) from the rival platoon.
All of us know that the only event in the entire film which was even remotely accurate was that there really was an invasion of Grenada – the rest was complete and utter BS. My point is the analogy drawn between Highway and Major Butt-Head. Which one would you consider to have the tactical and leadership skills and of whose mere present evokes a desire to follow and win? (1): GySgt Highway, with a BA from the U of Korea and a MA from the U of RVN; or, (2): The proud to have been from supply – guy – with the academy ring? Just an analogy, now - Just askin’ . . .
Look, I know a bunch of Army, Navy, Marine, Coast Guard – even some Air Force officers - who have advanced degrees in this and that, but I only know of two who actually attended the US Army Command and General Staff College and the Army War College in Carlisle Pennsylvania. Of the four general officers I have personally known, only two had attended the Military Academy. A Navy Captain, my wife’s uncle, graduated the USNA in 1941 and was immediately assigned to the USS Wasp, CV-7. He did survive the sinking on September 15, 1942, but much of the war was over for him used up in rehabilitation hospitals after witnessing the second of three torpedoes strike the ship right below where he was standing at that moment. He retired a Navy Captain.
My father-in-law, just started business school in New York in 1940 heard the war drums sounding and joined the AAC as a flight officer. He survived several B-17 crashes and being badly shot up in the waist window of a B-17 and winning a machinegun duel (.50 Cal vs. 7.7 mm) with a Kawanishi H6K – Mavis Flying Boat over the Pacific as a ride-along searching for the bad guys shelling their airfield with a howitzer from another island. He came back after the war to finish school at Kenyon College then join a printing company owned and operated by a Japanese National here in Honolulu! He retired an Air Force Colonel and the president of the printing company!
The rest of the officers, I believe were either Mustangers or ROTC types before going active like my father, who was a RCAF flight cadet in Canada in 1940. When the war broke out, he was repatriated back to flight school in the Navy where he was originally rejected. He never had a college degree with the exception of some credits. He retired as a Nuclear Power Engineer, US Navy Shipyard, Pearl Harbor Sub-Base, Hawaii. Just my opinion and SWAG, but still . . . just sayin’ . . .
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1SG, I like the idea. I think there needs to be a period of time where the SFC goes to a set of courses. Possibly including getting a bachelors degree. It has to be done because he's not going to get promoted to CPT without it. He's certainly not going to make it to MAJ without it. The courses officers go to are not only for the training, but for a mental shift. When you left a unit, you were a CPT, but you started as a LT and everyone knew it. Now, after a year of being around nothing but CPT's, you actually start acting like one. You show up at a new unit and no one knows anything about you but the fact that you have bars on. Same for MAJ and going to CGSC. Something would have to be done for the NCO's going into the officer world, especially to help them transition.
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SFC Domingo M.
SPC Allen Schott - That would qualify that soldier for Commander-in-Chief. If correct, most Presidents have an I.Q. of around 130 or higher. Hope you get a laugh out of this.
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LCDR Robert S.
SSgt Robert Van Buhler III - Custer didn't get RIFd to LC. At the start of the war, he was still a cadet at West Point. His wartime ranks are misleading, because some of them were in the US Volunteers, which is a separate organization than the regular US Army, and others were brevet (i.e. temporary) promotions in the US Army.
Because the Volunteers are a separate organization, his highest rank as Major General in that organization is a completely separate thing from his rank in the Army. And because he still held his commission in the Army while serving with the Volunteers, he got promotions in the Army during the war. Additionally, he also got brevet promotions in the Army during the war. His highest non-brevet rank in the Regular Army was Captain (in other words, his actual rank at the end of the war), despite his five brevet promotions in (reaching the rank of Brevet Major General). So at the end of the war, when he mustered out of the Volunteers and returned to the Regular Army, he got promoted from Captain to Lieutenant Colonel.
Because the Volunteers are a separate organization, his highest rank as Major General in that organization is a completely separate thing from his rank in the Army. And because he still held his commission in the Army while serving with the Volunteers, he got promotions in the Army during the war. Additionally, he also got brevet promotions in the Army during the war. His highest non-brevet rank in the Regular Army was Captain (in other words, his actual rank at the end of the war), despite his five brevet promotions in (reaching the rank of Brevet Major General). So at the end of the war, when he mustered out of the Volunteers and returned to the Regular Army, he got promoted from Captain to Lieutenant Colonel.
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PO1 Richard Norton
Like the Air Force all branches should have a community college. All schools and courses should be evaluated for educational credits and be assigned accordingly.
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SGT Dan Keeler
What value does a college degree really hold? It's a piece of paper that tells people you spent a lot of money on knowledge that is often only marginally useful and serves mostly to provide sound bites at dinner parties. Some of the smartest people and greatest leaders I've ever known have no college at all, and some of the worst leaders held advanced degrees.
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