Posted on Oct 10, 2017
Is the MOVSM required to have a lot of man hours, or is it at the Commander's discretion?
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Was told that volunteer hours would help to this? Upon looking at the regs, it doesn’t state a specific time requirement?
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Awards
Edited 7 y ago
Posted 7 y ago
Responses: 7
SGT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - this is not one of those times. Ya know, I read back to SSG Livingston’s thread and though I was maybe a tad harsh on him, I was accurate all day. But also, I was a bit verbose. There’s actually a much simpler way to understand this issue.
First, the DoD manual applies to all branches. It states that clearly.
Second, It’s important to note how the AR is put together. It’s kind of funny how people, on this subject, find the MOVSM in the AR, and quote it verbatim. but they forget to read the table of contents.
Allow me to quote from the table of contents of AR 600-8-22. Chapter 2. (The MOVSM is under ch 2-23)
“2–1. Objective
a. This chapter explains DOD policies and procedures on awarding Defense decorations and service awards; nonmilitary decorations; the acceptance of foreign military decorations by Servicemembers of the Armed Forces of the United States; and the Office of the Secretary of Defense Identification Badge. It describes the various Defense awards; the basis or eligibility requirements for the award; who is eligible to receive the award; and who is authorized to approve the award. It tells how to prepare, submit, and process recommendations for DOD decorations.
b. The objective of the DOD Military Awards Program is to ensure Servicemembers of the Armed Forces of the United States receive tangible recognition for acts of valor, exceptional service or achievement, and acts of heroism not involving actual combat. Processing and approval of DOD awards are awarded in the name of the Secretary of Defense.”
Directly from the AR. It explains that chapter 2 will simply be explaining DoD policies and procedures. This AR was from 2015. Unfortunately, the most recent DoD guidance on the MOVSM was 2016. The Army needs to update its AR, or update it’s NCOs how to read it.
DoD manual and AR aren’t conflicting here. The AR actually reads, “This chapter explains DOD policies and procedures on awarding Defense decorations and service awards..”. And the most recent DoD policy is 1348.33 v2.
So brother, it appears you’re a current service member. It’s just my hope that the correct information gets disseminated. The dissemination of Bad information can eventually get people killed. It’s a bad habit to get into.
Best of luck.
First, the DoD manual applies to all branches. It states that clearly.
Second, It’s important to note how the AR is put together. It’s kind of funny how people, on this subject, find the MOVSM in the AR, and quote it verbatim. but they forget to read the table of contents.
Allow me to quote from the table of contents of AR 600-8-22. Chapter 2. (The MOVSM is under ch 2-23)
“2–1. Objective
a. This chapter explains DOD policies and procedures on awarding Defense decorations and service awards; nonmilitary decorations; the acceptance of foreign military decorations by Servicemembers of the Armed Forces of the United States; and the Office of the Secretary of Defense Identification Badge. It describes the various Defense awards; the basis or eligibility requirements for the award; who is eligible to receive the award; and who is authorized to approve the award. It tells how to prepare, submit, and process recommendations for DOD decorations.
b. The objective of the DOD Military Awards Program is to ensure Servicemembers of the Armed Forces of the United States receive tangible recognition for acts of valor, exceptional service or achievement, and acts of heroism not involving actual combat. Processing and approval of DOD awards are awarded in the name of the Secretary of Defense.”
Directly from the AR. It explains that chapter 2 will simply be explaining DoD policies and procedures. This AR was from 2015. Unfortunately, the most recent DoD guidance on the MOVSM was 2016. The Army needs to update its AR, or update it’s NCOs how to read it.
DoD manual and AR aren’t conflicting here. The AR actually reads, “This chapter explains DOD policies and procedures on awarding Defense decorations and service awards..”. And the most recent DoD policy is 1348.33 v2.
So brother, it appears you’re a current service member. It’s just my hope that the correct information gets disseminated. The dissemination of Bad information can eventually get people killed. It’s a bad habit to get into.
Best of luck.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) -
SGT Anon,
What you’re saying isn’t wrong, it just isn’t complete. I’m continuing to post about this because I agree that it is important for correct information to be disseminated. The MOVSM orders are a good example of the interplay between different orders, policies, and directives, they are confusing (which was why I searched this topic!) I’m taking the time to type this way too long post so that people will understand the process of how orders are crafted, and it actually applies to other areas of our military and government when it comes to the interplay between legislation and how this legislation is actually carried out.
I am not an order expert or legal scholar, so take everything with a grain of salt, but I feel that I have now researched this topic more than anyone else on the face of the earth.
The MOVSM started as Executive Order 12830. (You can read the text here: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=374)
The pertinent part of the order is: “Members of the Armed Forces of the United States (including Reserve components) who perform outstanding volunteer service to the civilian community of a sustained, direct, and consequential nature are eligible for the medal.”
What does that mean? Is that 3 hours of really good service, but not in fits and starts? Nobody knows, because all they have is an intent, so everyone waits for further guidance with bated breath.
The next step is for a General’s secretary or aide to write up what this means while the General is out golfing. They interpet what “sustained, direct, and consequential” actually means. In this case the DOD came out with 1348.33 which you previously provided:
“The overall level of volunteer participation and impact of an individual’s community service is key to determining whether award of the MOVSM is justified. Although sustained community service is NOT defined by a specific time period or number of volunteer hours (e.g., 36 months encompassing 500 hours of direct volunteer service), approval authorities will ensure the service to be honored merits the special recognition afforded by this medal.”
As you helpfully pointed out, the chain of orders isn’t complete yet. 1348.33 points this out when it says (again, as you posted):
“e. Procedures.
(1) Each award authority will establish procedures to ensure compliance with MOVSM policy as required. Such procedures will comply with pertinent laws, E.O.s, federal regulations, and the policies and procedures outlined in this volume.”
Now each award authority is tasked with coming up with what this means. Please note that 1348.33 states that the specific time period isn’t defined (not that there isn’t allowed to be one). So the Army (and presumably the other services somewhere) comes up with their own order, and released: AR 600-8-22. The Army’s states that a Commander who is a LtCol or higher is the approving authority and futher clarifies:
“2-23c: There is no specific time period to qualify for award of the MOVSM; however, volunteer service must exceed 3 years and/or 500 hours of service.”
And on the 7th day, God rested.
Except wait, this still doesn’t answer the question! All this order has done is set a lower limit (and provide other judgement criteria). There is still room for Commander’s Intent. As always, the approving authority is free to set his own standards, as long as they align with the standards of those above them, just like how my Company Commander demands 1 hour of PT daily, and my squad gets that, and then I continue to thrash them for another 12 hours! ;-) So a commander is free to specify that he won’t approve an award for less than 6 years, and 2000 hours of service, he just can’t go lower than the 3 years, 500 hours guideline.
In short, the chain when crafting an order is:
Legislation -> Executive Order/intent ->DOD policy -> Service Policy -> Sub level 1 -> Sub-level 2, etc.
The order is reversed when you try and figure out what applies to you. The most important info is what your (in this case) Commander LtCol or higher states. If what he states doesn’t match the legislation, then you can bring it to his attention, but what he commands is what most directly impacts you. In other words you look for orders starting at sub-level 2 and work your way up:
Sub-level 2 -> Sub level 1 -> Service Policy -> DOD Policy -> Executive Order/intent -> Legislation
Date of promulgation doesn’t actually matter, other than that the local commander may want to review his own orders if his boss’s order have changed. That is not the case here.
SGT Anon,
What you’re saying isn’t wrong, it just isn’t complete. I’m continuing to post about this because I agree that it is important for correct information to be disseminated. The MOVSM orders are a good example of the interplay between different orders, policies, and directives, they are confusing (which was why I searched this topic!) I’m taking the time to type this way too long post so that people will understand the process of how orders are crafted, and it actually applies to other areas of our military and government when it comes to the interplay between legislation and how this legislation is actually carried out.
I am not an order expert or legal scholar, so take everything with a grain of salt, but I feel that I have now researched this topic more than anyone else on the face of the earth.
The MOVSM started as Executive Order 12830. (You can read the text here: http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=374)
The pertinent part of the order is: “Members of the Armed Forces of the United States (including Reserve components) who perform outstanding volunteer service to the civilian community of a sustained, direct, and consequential nature are eligible for the medal.”
What does that mean? Is that 3 hours of really good service, but not in fits and starts? Nobody knows, because all they have is an intent, so everyone waits for further guidance with bated breath.
The next step is for a General’s secretary or aide to write up what this means while the General is out golfing. They interpet what “sustained, direct, and consequential” actually means. In this case the DOD came out with 1348.33 which you previously provided:
“The overall level of volunteer participation and impact of an individual’s community service is key to determining whether award of the MOVSM is justified. Although sustained community service is NOT defined by a specific time period or number of volunteer hours (e.g., 36 months encompassing 500 hours of direct volunteer service), approval authorities will ensure the service to be honored merits the special recognition afforded by this medal.”
As you helpfully pointed out, the chain of orders isn’t complete yet. 1348.33 points this out when it says (again, as you posted):
“e. Procedures.
(1) Each award authority will establish procedures to ensure compliance with MOVSM policy as required. Such procedures will comply with pertinent laws, E.O.s, federal regulations, and the policies and procedures outlined in this volume.”
Now each award authority is tasked with coming up with what this means. Please note that 1348.33 states that the specific time period isn’t defined (not that there isn’t allowed to be one). So the Army (and presumably the other services somewhere) comes up with their own order, and released: AR 600-8-22. The Army’s states that a Commander who is a LtCol or higher is the approving authority and futher clarifies:
“2-23c: There is no specific time period to qualify for award of the MOVSM; however, volunteer service must exceed 3 years and/or 500 hours of service.”
And on the 7th day, God rested.
Except wait, this still doesn’t answer the question! All this order has done is set a lower limit (and provide other judgement criteria). There is still room for Commander’s Intent. As always, the approving authority is free to set his own standards, as long as they align with the standards of those above them, just like how my Company Commander demands 1 hour of PT daily, and my squad gets that, and then I continue to thrash them for another 12 hours! ;-) So a commander is free to specify that he won’t approve an award for less than 6 years, and 2000 hours of service, he just can’t go lower than the 3 years, 500 hours guideline.
In short, the chain when crafting an order is:
Legislation -> Executive Order/intent ->DOD policy -> Service Policy -> Sub level 1 -> Sub-level 2, etc.
The order is reversed when you try and figure out what applies to you. The most important info is what your (in this case) Commander LtCol or higher states. If what he states doesn’t match the legislation, then you can bring it to his attention, but what he commands is what most directly impacts you. In other words you look for orders starting at sub-level 2 and work your way up:
Sub-level 2 -> Sub level 1 -> Service Policy -> DOD Policy -> Executive Order/intent -> Legislation
Date of promulgation doesn’t actually matter, other than that the local commander may want to review his own orders if his boss’s order have changed. That is not the case here.
George Bush: Executive Order 12830—Establishing the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal...
The American Presidency Project contains the most comprehensive collection of resources pertaining to the study of the President of the United States. Compiled by John Woolley and Gerhard Peters
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SGT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - excellent response. Well written.
Allow me to help clarify the faultiness in your logic. Ch. 2 of AR 600-8-22 defines that it only “explains DOD policies and procedures on awarding Defense decorations and service awards...” The criteria down the chapter specifically for the MOVSM aren’t a tightening of the Army belt. It was DoD policy at the time of AR publication.
Again, as DoD policy has since been revised, (and the Army is too stingy to republish an entire AR), DoD policy stands.
Now, let’s gets to the good stuff. Other awards under 1348.33 v2 include the POW medal and the Afghan Campaign Medal. Service wide, same standards for all. By your logic, can the Army have its own criteria for those medals? “The DoD states the criteria is this, but here in the Army, if you want the ACM, you need to eeaarn it.” Negative. Nope. And definitely not.
It’s a DoD wide medal. The type of scenario you’re envisioning is with, say, the Army Commendation Medal. All branches have an equivalent Commendation medal. Respective to that service. As such, each medal has service specific regulations.
If the Army desired to impose tougher standards to a Service-wide medal, just issue a new medal, “the Army outstanding volunteer service medal.”
Moving along. Thanks for posting the original award creation from President Bush. You saved me a google. Please see section 2 that states:
“Sec. 2. The Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal and ribbons and appurtenances thereto shall be of appropriate design approved by the Secretary of Defense. The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe regulations to govern the award and wear of the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal. The regulations shall place the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal in order of precedence immediately after the Humanitarian Service Medal.”
My favorite part about the presidential order there is that it, in no uncertain terms, clearly states that the Secretary of Defense (note, the Army, and it’s regulations, work for him) prescribe regulations to govern the award and its wear. What’s so really interesting about how this Executive Order is worded is that it clearly states who regulates the award. Now, that guidance can be modified or tweaked, say, most recently with 1348.33 v2. But, the President was clear as to who prescribes its standards. Again, thanks for saving me that google.
And on the 8th day, I rested. Or should I go wake up God? While I’m not a legal scholar, I was (am retired) an NCO. You’re absolutely right that I was an expert with every piece of flair on my chest. I’m slightly dismayed to hear a fellow NCO say he’s not an expert. If I recall the the creed, somewhere in there, it says, “I am an expert, and a ...”. Or something like that.
It’s not just research. It’s also application. Read what’s there. Table of contents of the AR says that Ch.2 is just explaining DoD regulations. (Refer to1348.33v2). Then read that. Then if necessary, go back to the EO and read section 2.
This isn’t a question of orders from top down or bottom up conflicting. (Nice flow chart, I didn’t know how orders worked). Just read the regulations. It’s all right there. Any other questions? I really don’t want to wake up God.
Allow me to help clarify the faultiness in your logic. Ch. 2 of AR 600-8-22 defines that it only “explains DOD policies and procedures on awarding Defense decorations and service awards...” The criteria down the chapter specifically for the MOVSM aren’t a tightening of the Army belt. It was DoD policy at the time of AR publication.
Again, as DoD policy has since been revised, (and the Army is too stingy to republish an entire AR), DoD policy stands.
Now, let’s gets to the good stuff. Other awards under 1348.33 v2 include the POW medal and the Afghan Campaign Medal. Service wide, same standards for all. By your logic, can the Army have its own criteria for those medals? “The DoD states the criteria is this, but here in the Army, if you want the ACM, you need to eeaarn it.” Negative. Nope. And definitely not.
It’s a DoD wide medal. The type of scenario you’re envisioning is with, say, the Army Commendation Medal. All branches have an equivalent Commendation medal. Respective to that service. As such, each medal has service specific regulations.
If the Army desired to impose tougher standards to a Service-wide medal, just issue a new medal, “the Army outstanding volunteer service medal.”
Moving along. Thanks for posting the original award creation from President Bush. You saved me a google. Please see section 2 that states:
“Sec. 2. The Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal and ribbons and appurtenances thereto shall be of appropriate design approved by the Secretary of Defense. The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe regulations to govern the award and wear of the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal. The regulations shall place the Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal in order of precedence immediately after the Humanitarian Service Medal.”
My favorite part about the presidential order there is that it, in no uncertain terms, clearly states that the Secretary of Defense (note, the Army, and it’s regulations, work for him) prescribe regulations to govern the award and its wear. What’s so really interesting about how this Executive Order is worded is that it clearly states who regulates the award. Now, that guidance can be modified or tweaked, say, most recently with 1348.33 v2. But, the President was clear as to who prescribes its standards. Again, thanks for saving me that google.
And on the 8th day, I rested. Or should I go wake up God? While I’m not a legal scholar, I was (am retired) an NCO. You’re absolutely right that I was an expert with every piece of flair on my chest. I’m slightly dismayed to hear a fellow NCO say he’s not an expert. If I recall the the creed, somewhere in there, it says, “I am an expert, and a ...”. Or something like that.
It’s not just research. It’s also application. Read what’s there. Table of contents of the AR says that Ch.2 is just explaining DoD regulations. (Refer to1348.33v2). Then read that. Then if necessary, go back to the EO and read section 2.
This isn’t a question of orders from top down or bottom up conflicting. (Nice flow chart, I didn’t know how orders worked). Just read the regulations. It’s all right there. Any other questions? I really don’t want to wake up God.
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SGT (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) - by a lack of response, I guess we can let God sleep. Please feel free to disseminate the correct information down (or up) to your joes. Best of luck to you.
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Most commands I've seen go with 300 hours over the duration of your assignment, 2.5-3 years, but there us no set rule.
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There is no requirement guidance for the MOVSM. It is totally at your Command's discretion. The standard is 3 years OR 400 hours, however, I have seen people get it with as little as 150 hours. My last Command required no documentation; my current Command does.
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