Posted on Oct 26, 2014
Marine Corps Infantry Officer Course and Female Marines, gauging females in combat roles
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Through out the military there has been a push for female service members to join their brothers in some of the most challenging assignments in combat units. The Marines are by far the most adamant about proving this. They are steps beyond where the other services are in their own integration of females in combat roles. They are finding the cold hard truth. It really doesn't matter what one thinks is fair, as in requiring females to performing such duties, but the issue is are they physically capable of performing them. The physical challenges are the deciding factor that many simple ignore. It may be that simply some don't know what they are asking females service members to do. Saying that you know someone that is capable of passing is really just an assumption. Unless one is familiar with that training by going through it or witnesses it as an observer one really may not realize what is expected of a person in that course. This is no more evident than the Army calling for Observers for Ranger School to follow any female going through the course to learn on the stresses on those females trying.
*Please read the article. There are a lot of assumptions out there. So far there isn't a solid number out there on how many. I believe they are up to 27 female marines that have attempted it and failed. One of the most recent of the three was a recycle. If they were a male Marine a failed recycle attempt is a guarantee reclass to something else.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2014/1024/Three-pioneering-women-in-Marine-infantry-course-are-asked-to-leave.-Why
*Please read the article. There are a lot of assumptions out there. So far there isn't a solid number out there on how many. I believe they are up to 27 female marines that have attempted it and failed. One of the most recent of the three was a recycle. If they were a male Marine a failed recycle attempt is a guarantee reclass to something else.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2014/1024/Three-pioneering-women-in-Marine-infantry-course-are-asked-to-leave.-Why
Standards
Army
Marine Corps
Human Rights
Women in the Military
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 23
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I'm all for following the best and the brightest. When I was a grunt, I must admit that anyone looking so tiny would never make it through the grueling demands that we had. That being said, don't quit trying. I knew some woman that were farm raised and corn fed with backs stronger than most from throwing bails of hay all day long. I knew some women who were disqualified from flying scouts because they were too tall. No way that they would fail the physical demands. These officers just look tiny. We all come in all shapes and sizes. Not everyone can make it in the infantry....female or male.
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If they are capable of meeting the established standards, then so be it. Lowering the standard to allow women in is certainly not the right answer. The requirements aren't created arbitrarily; they ensure ability to accomplish the mission.
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SGT (Join to see)
LCDR (Join to see) and CPT (Join to see) I can't help but feel current politics is pushing the armed forces to be more a social experiment in political correctness than a highly trained and motivated fighting force to win wars.
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SGT (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) Too many people NOT in uniform trying to influence the policy of those who DO. It's too easy to sit behind a desk and say "this sounds like a great idea" when you have no stake in planning, implementing, or the outcome.
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SGT (Join to see)
SPC Graydon Beadle, I agree with you wholeheartedly and feel that it's not just in situations like these but also with battlefield decisions. I've always said that "armchair generals and politicians" should not determine ROEs on the ground because they are so far removed from the situation that they end up hindering ground combat troops and put them at a further risk by trying to be too politically correct.
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So, a little inside gouge from someone who's been there: this school is very hard. The rest of this post is long, but the topic merits it.
The article was overall pretty fair, but a bit ignorant, maybe even sloppily constructed.
1. It's not fair to compare IOC to an enlisted school (unspecified, whether it's School of Infantry or Marine Combat Training-very different) in terms of hike pace as Mr. Jacobs does. IOC has different, tougher standards than any other USMC school (except maybe Basic Reconnaissance Course (BRC)or part of the MARSOC pipeline) and rightly so.
2. "Retired Army Col. Ellen Haring, an advocate for women in combat," with all the respect due her honorable service, is unqualified to comment on the training because A. Not a Marine and B. Not an attendee of the school. I wouldn't try to tell a Ranger about the appropriate difficulty of his course.
3. Maj Flynn (who I think I was chewed out by-at IOC-for good reason) makes the point about the focus being on leadership, therefore the fact that the entire class failed to meet the target time (a very common occurrence) is not relevant, the fact that these three men and three women could not hang with the class is the critical issue.
Now, to the topic generally, I agree with SFC Mark Merino, CWO4 Maria Pettus and CPT Zachary Brooks, same standards, same expectations, same privileges. I don't care about your race, sex, orientation or anything but your ability and commitment. I am proud overall of how the Corps has performed in this task: challenging female Marines to achieve. I would prefer we move more rapidly: mandate a common Physical Fitness Test, uniform and Specialty designators, I would incentivize graduation of these schools by awarding the specialty sought just as a male Marine would earn, even if they cant yet be assigned to combat units, they can carry the deginator at least.
Finally, I want to thank CPT (Join to see) for posting this worthwhile topic for discussion, kudos, and one minor correction:
"If they were a male Marine a failed recycle attempt is a guarantee reclass to something else. "
This statement is often true, but there are exceptions. Most of the guys who were dropped from my class were for leadership, or motivation or skill failures. There were one or two who still possessed strong potential as Infantry Officers and needed some specific remediation, and were therefore recycled. It is rare, but it does happen.
I think overall we need to be steadfastly professional, cautious on both extremes to show no bias, to treat no one with special preference based on anything but their potential, never any external unrelated traits.
The article was overall pretty fair, but a bit ignorant, maybe even sloppily constructed.
1. It's not fair to compare IOC to an enlisted school (unspecified, whether it's School of Infantry or Marine Combat Training-very different) in terms of hike pace as Mr. Jacobs does. IOC has different, tougher standards than any other USMC school (except maybe Basic Reconnaissance Course (BRC)or part of the MARSOC pipeline) and rightly so.
2. "Retired Army Col. Ellen Haring, an advocate for women in combat," with all the respect due her honorable service, is unqualified to comment on the training because A. Not a Marine and B. Not an attendee of the school. I wouldn't try to tell a Ranger about the appropriate difficulty of his course.
3. Maj Flynn (who I think I was chewed out by-at IOC-for good reason) makes the point about the focus being on leadership, therefore the fact that the entire class failed to meet the target time (a very common occurrence) is not relevant, the fact that these three men and three women could not hang with the class is the critical issue.
Now, to the topic generally, I agree with SFC Mark Merino, CWO4 Maria Pettus and CPT Zachary Brooks, same standards, same expectations, same privileges. I don't care about your race, sex, orientation or anything but your ability and commitment. I am proud overall of how the Corps has performed in this task: challenging female Marines to achieve. I would prefer we move more rapidly: mandate a common Physical Fitness Test, uniform and Specialty designators, I would incentivize graduation of these schools by awarding the specialty sought just as a male Marine would earn, even if they cant yet be assigned to combat units, they can carry the deginator at least.
Finally, I want to thank CPT (Join to see) for posting this worthwhile topic for discussion, kudos, and one minor correction:
"If they were a male Marine a failed recycle attempt is a guarantee reclass to something else. "
This statement is often true, but there are exceptions. Most of the guys who were dropped from my class were for leadership, or motivation or skill failures. There were one or two who still possessed strong potential as Infantry Officers and needed some specific remediation, and were therefore recycled. It is rare, but it does happen.
I think overall we need to be steadfastly professional, cautious on both extremes to show no bias, to treat no one with special preference based on anything but their potential, never any external unrelated traits.
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Capt Lance Gallardo
Capt. Porter. While I was at TBS from Sept-1990-Apr 1991, there was a IOC Student Lieutenant who died during one of those extremely strenuous IOC hikes. I do not remember exactly what was the cause . . . He was a PT stud, and his death came as a big shock to everyone, not just IOC but everyone at TBS, students and staff. He was a class or two ahead of my TBS company -Hotel. My classmates who went through IOC have told me that it was definitely one of the toughest things they had ever done, physically, with the training tempo, the sleep deprivation, etc. I also remember IOC Lts coming up to us TBS students in the field and asking us for any food, because they were given at times only one MRE per day. All of this and you are supposed to have your tactical and field skills working at a high level. My point is that IOC literally kills some of the students. It is rare but it happens. I think the staff is trying to recreate the most intense conditions possible to be able see if the IOC Lieutenant can perform all of the myriad of Leadership and Platoon Leader Skills that a Platoon commander is expected to perform in combat. If not, you wash out. Period. At the back of their minds (the Staff) is the acid test of "Will this Lt. get himself and his Marines killed because he cannot put it all together when it matters in the intense "crucible" of combat?" Nathan Fick compares his TBS experience to his IOC experience by saying if if he was running at TBS it was an all out breathless sprint at IOC with a lot more fine detail and much more complexity with the infantry tactics and problems that had to be mastered. My personal estimate is that probably only 30-35% of the TBS grads had what it takes to make it through IOC. I do not think I would have graduated IOC. I made it through two summer sessions of OCS (PLC Junior and Senior Classes-6 weeks each in 1983 and 1985) plus TBS, I was never injured, never dropped out of anything or failed to pass any PT event or test. Highest PFT was 298. Still, from what I know of IOC second hand from people whom I hold in the highest regard who graduated from IOC, I would not have made it. "Know yourself and seek self-improvement." Maybe it was just the lack of desire. I never wanted to be an Infantry Officer, and from the time I changed from unrestricted line officer to Law Contract-I had set my sights on becoming a JAG Officer in the Marine Corps. It is a historical footnote that the two TBS (Delta and Echo I think) classes (Companies) that graduated in front of my class company (Hotel) in the run up to Desert Storm, had their aviator and law contracts cancelled and would be aviators and would be JAGS were sent through IOC and graduated. These Lieutenants were hand selected by TBS staff to attend IOC, based upon their performance and aptitude at TBS. Some actually ended up going "03" after the graduating from IOC and did not end up going back to their original Aviator or JAG MOSes. One I knew personally from my TBS class company made flag rank (Brig Gen) as an infantry reserve officer and was deployed in iraq and took part in the second battle for Falluja as a Staff Officer I believe.
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Capt Lance Gallardo
I think the IOC Student Lieutenant died of either a brain aneurism or something heart related that was previously undiagnosed (like a ruptured Aorta), the classic ticking time bomb, like what killed Author Jim Fix at 52 years old, the celebrated Complete Book of Running Author. http://www.nytimes.com/1984/07/22/obituaries/james-f-fixx-dies-jogging-author-on-running-was-52.html
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Capt Lance Gallardo
"(This reporter graduated from the course in 1988; on the first day, a lieutenant regarded by instructors and peers as one of the most fit students suffered a heart attack and died.)"
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/09/us/grueling-course-for-marine-officers-will-open-its-doors-to-women.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/09/us/grueling-course-for-marine-officers-will-open-its-doors-to-women.html?_r=0
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