Posted on Apr 25, 2017
For APFT failures, which starts separation procedures, two consecutive failures or two failures overall?
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I'm pretty sure I know the answer but can't find it in the regs. Separation on APFT failure is after failing two consecutive APFTs right? So say you fail the first one, take another within the 90 days and fail that - then separated. But if you fail one and then pass them for the next year but then fail one a year later, that's not cause for separation is it?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3
SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
Huh?
The 90 days starts from the day you fail your first APFT. You get up to 90 days - I posted this a year ago because I am in a joint unit and some people were giving mixed information to the Soldier.
When you fail an APFT, you get up to 90 days from the day - well actually it might from the day you get counseled actually. I'd have to double check that. You can take it before 90 days if you get agreement from your 1SG and CO I believe. Again I'd have to double check it's been awhile since I had to look it up.
The 90 days starts from the day you fail your first APFT. You get up to 90 days - I posted this a year ago because I am in a joint unit and some people were giving mixed information to the Soldier.
When you fail an APFT, you get up to 90 days from the day - well actually it might from the day you get counseled actually. I'd have to double check that. You can take it before 90 days if you get agreement from your 1SG and CO I believe. Again I'd have to double check it's been awhile since I had to look it up.
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I asked because I got some misinformation. I'm at a joint unit - the SEL of my directorate is AF. He came up to me saying that one of the soldiers failed his PT test and they're separating him. I said it was a first heard for me because I had just gotten back off leave yesterday. I talked to one of the other Army NCOs who is in his section - no. He failed a diagnostic. Not a record. She said it was explained to the SEL about three times that he failed a practice PT test not a record. But he came and asked me about it and then our division NCOIC and he didn't now because there was nothing to know. It was a practice. He failed one last year about this time (we do our APFTs in spring and fall here). He passed it in the fall. The other NCO said if he fails this one in May he will get chaptered. I said I thought it had to be two consecutive like two in a row and she said two within a year. I wasn't too sure about that either.
Also I did read through the regs. The TC (which says nothing). 635-200. 350-1 also. It just said two consecutive so I wasn't sure but apparently no one failed a record recently anyway.
Also I did read through the regs. The TC (which says nothing). 635-200. 350-1 also. It just said two consecutive so I wasn't sure but apparently no one failed a record recently anyway.
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SGM Erik Marquez
they had it worng..
1ST it must be an announced record APFT, that generally means on the training schedule, but not required.
2ND it is two consecutive record APFT with required period between the two. Any record APFT passed between failure 1 and failure 2 means the "two consecutive" count resets.
AR 635-200 states in part
"Initiation of separation proceedings is required for Soldiers without medical limitations who have two consecutive failures of the Army physical fitness test per AR 350–1 "
Ar 350-1 states in part "A repetitive failure occurs when a Soldier fails a record test, the Soldier is provided adequate time and assistance to improve his or her performance, and failure occurs again"
Notice it is not a specific time requirement between APFT record attempts, likely the IG and JAG would argue for a SM that was given two consecutive record APFT 1 day apart and or the approving authority would refuse to sign the packet.
So what is "adequate time and assistance"? I believed it was a moving target ..based partly on what the Sm had to say for them selfs.
Getting there personal assessment of what went wrong, what they feel they need to improve in writing, along with a plan from the Medical authority, dietitian and unit MFT that address the leader perceived issues and the SM perceived issues ...attaching a time frame to that plan and getting the SM to acknowledge the plan (and if you can "agree" with it) and the stated time frame....
That process ensured I never had a Chap 13 separation kicked back, not one, EVER.
While many others were from all units were..
1ST it must be an announced record APFT, that generally means on the training schedule, but not required.
2ND it is two consecutive record APFT with required period between the two. Any record APFT passed between failure 1 and failure 2 means the "two consecutive" count resets.
AR 635-200 states in part
"Initiation of separation proceedings is required for Soldiers without medical limitations who have two consecutive failures of the Army physical fitness test per AR 350–1 "
Ar 350-1 states in part "A repetitive failure occurs when a Soldier fails a record test, the Soldier is provided adequate time and assistance to improve his or her performance, and failure occurs again"
Notice it is not a specific time requirement between APFT record attempts, likely the IG and JAG would argue for a SM that was given two consecutive record APFT 1 day apart and or the approving authority would refuse to sign the packet.
So what is "adequate time and assistance"? I believed it was a moving target ..based partly on what the Sm had to say for them selfs.
Getting there personal assessment of what went wrong, what they feel they need to improve in writing, along with a plan from the Medical authority, dietitian and unit MFT that address the leader perceived issues and the SM perceived issues ...attaching a time frame to that plan and getting the SM to acknowledge the plan (and if you can "agree" with it) and the stated time frame....
That process ensured I never had a Chap 13 separation kicked back, not one, EVER.
While many others were from all units were..
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1SG (Join to see)
SGM Marquez is exactly right, but just to give a little more clarification. The time between (APFT Record Failure 1) and the (2nd APFT Record attempt) has to be 90 or more days. The only way the Soldier can be given a 2nd record APFT prior to the 90 day mark is upon the Soldier signing a waver given by the Commander. If you fail to get this waver and give the Soldier a record before the 90 time frame you cannot initiate separation (legally). Now, you can have the Soldier conduct Diagnostic APFT's weekly but if he passes the Diagnostic it has to remain a Diagnostic.
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1SG (Join to see)
Make him/her take a Diagnostic every week, and then conduct morning PT. I promises by the 90 day mark the Soldier will do one of two things; pass the APFT or fail on purpose so he/she can be separated, and when they go to TDS they will wave legal counsel.
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SFC Kelly Fuerhoff
So here's how we do record APFTs here since it's joint - we have one in the spring and one in the fall. Usually in Apr - May and then Nov - Dec. The Army Element deputy commander sends out an email and the SEL follows up. There are several dates because we mostly have officers here so it's hard to get them in to take one.
This soldier last year in the spring failed the APFT - but he passed the next one in the fall. So we have this year's spring ones going on right now. The SSG gave him a diagnostic on Apr 6. He failed the diag - but when it was relayed to his non Army operational leadership they got confused and told the directorate SEL (Air Force CMSgt) that he failed his PT test. So he thought he failed an official PT test. But then the SSG explained to him twice it was a practice test - his Navy Chief told the CMSgt it was practice. But yet he still came to me and the MSgt about "he failed a PT test and he's getting separated." So before I found out that he took a diagnostic is when I posted this.
But then the SSG says if he fails this record in a couple weeks he gets separated and I said no I thought it was two consecutive as in if you fail the first one you get 90 days and then you take another and if you fail that you get separated. She said "No it's two within a year." I don't think that's right because he failed one, passed the next one and the failure was a year ago. So he passed his last APFT.
The Army Element started 3 days a week PT (that's not mandatory because no one can seem to make PT mandatory around here with everything) after that diagnostic. This is my second joint unit. The first one my section ended up doing mandatory 3 days a week PT (but if someone had a mission requirement they were excluded) as a section after mainly the AF was failing their weight. I told them we should do 5 days a week like we do in the Army and omg did the Air Force people throw a fit about that.
I'll see what happens with him in a couple weeks when he takes a record. But it wouldn't have even been any confusion if the CMSgt had just listened the first three times he was told that this last test was a practice test and not an actual record. I guess they don't do practice PT tests in the Air Force? I don't know. It sucks being in a joint unit sometimes when it comes to this stuff and trying to explain things. The Army is the minority here; mostly Air Force and some Navy.
This soldier last year in the spring failed the APFT - but he passed the next one in the fall. So we have this year's spring ones going on right now. The SSG gave him a diagnostic on Apr 6. He failed the diag - but when it was relayed to his non Army operational leadership they got confused and told the directorate SEL (Air Force CMSgt) that he failed his PT test. So he thought he failed an official PT test. But then the SSG explained to him twice it was a practice test - his Navy Chief told the CMSgt it was practice. But yet he still came to me and the MSgt about "he failed a PT test and he's getting separated." So before I found out that he took a diagnostic is when I posted this.
But then the SSG says if he fails this record in a couple weeks he gets separated and I said no I thought it was two consecutive as in if you fail the first one you get 90 days and then you take another and if you fail that you get separated. She said "No it's two within a year." I don't think that's right because he failed one, passed the next one and the failure was a year ago. So he passed his last APFT.
The Army Element started 3 days a week PT (that's not mandatory because no one can seem to make PT mandatory around here with everything) after that diagnostic. This is my second joint unit. The first one my section ended up doing mandatory 3 days a week PT (but if someone had a mission requirement they were excluded) as a section after mainly the AF was failing their weight. I told them we should do 5 days a week like we do in the Army and omg did the Air Force people throw a fit about that.
I'll see what happens with him in a couple weeks when he takes a record. But it wouldn't have even been any confusion if the CMSgt had just listened the first three times he was told that this last test was a practice test and not an actual record. I guess they don't do practice PT tests in the Air Force? I don't know. It sucks being in a joint unit sometimes when it comes to this stuff and trying to explain things. The Army is the minority here; mostly Air Force and some Navy.
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