Posted on Mar 21, 2017
What rules govern the DA 4187? Can a non-approving authority stop it (BN CSM)?
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Posted in these groups: 
DA Form 4187
DA Form 4187
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3
The DA Form 4187 is just that, a Form.. Its uses are many..
Who it must be routed though for review and or approve changes as well.
Who it must be routed though for review and or approve changes as well.
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SFC Shawn Warren
Roger that SGM, best practice is to have your CoC in the loop prior to initiating a 4187 and know the exact language, format, supporting documents required prior to dropping any packet. In addition, I would suggest to any solider to consult DA PAM 600-8. Finally, addressing SFC Anthony Lopez's original question, I would suggest the need to ID the specific reason for the 4187 (Personnel Action). Reason being that each unit will typically tailor/edit the form in Section IV Remarks (Applies to Sections II, III, and V) listing what information is need to move this request forward for consideration and approval. Hopefully, SFC Anthony Lopez has been able to resolve his issue. Retired 11B. Oscar Hotel.
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Just mental chewing gum, the CSM isn't on NCOERs either, but if he/she gets one for his/her boss to sign and it is jacked up, either DA won't accept it or it hurts the Soldier, that CSM can reject it too. S1 Clerks who see an administrative problem can kick things back for correction. If this CSM saw it had a submission date before DA would allow it, it is not really arbitrary or subjective. If you planned for S1 lag time, which is real and valid, even if you post dated everything on the packet, what would happen if everything went right and it got processed in 2-3 days? Proactivity is an awesome trait, but unless you have buy in from everyone else to be proactive, you are making assumptions on their time, if they do not perpetuate your own proactivity, it will do you no good.
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I don't know if there is a reg that governs the 4187, but I'll give this a shot:
If someone is not an approving authority, no they cannot disapprove a 4187.
HOWEVER
In every unit I have been in, the BN CSM will see every 4187 that is routed to the BN CDR before the BN CDR sees it. This happens so that the BN CDR doesn't waste his/her time on a request that does not merit his/her time. The BN CSM is the filter for the BN CDR. Thus, if the BN CSM doesn't think the request is valid, or it won't get approved higher up the chain (if it needs to go higher), or the CSM disagrees with the reasoning, whatever, etc. then the approving authority (many times the BN CDR) won't ever see it. Thus, it is *effectively* disapproved.
If someone is not an approving authority, no they cannot disapprove a 4187.
HOWEVER
In every unit I have been in, the BN CSM will see every 4187 that is routed to the BN CDR before the BN CDR sees it. This happens so that the BN CDR doesn't waste his/her time on a request that does not merit his/her time. The BN CSM is the filter for the BN CDR. Thus, if the BN CSM doesn't think the request is valid, or it won't get approved higher up the chain (if it needs to go higher), or the CSM disagrees with the reasoning, whatever, etc. then the approving authority (many times the BN CDR) won't ever see it. Thus, it is *effectively* disapproved.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) - Unfortunately, lots of NCOs, even those in senior ranks and positions don't know the regs, and in an effort to disguise that fact, double down on being ignorant until someone calls them on it, usually via an IG assistance request. I've never heard of anyone qualified for retirement being denied. I wish you luck in getting your paperwork through.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG(P) (Join to see) - What your missing is the work flow and business rules the the approver puts on the request.
NO, his PFC clerk can not disapprove it, but if given the task and authority, that same PFC may choose to not forwarded it for signature to his commander (The approver) if it has not met the requirements of the regulation for which the requests is summited, or the wants of the approver.
IE, 4187 request for deletion of assignment consideration.
Reg might say needs to be supported with a LES, statement of justification from the requester.
The approver may also require the letter of justification to include a career plan and counseling session from his CSM before he will consider the request to contact HRC and get the Sm off DS assignment orders.
If that PFC clerk charged with reviewing all 4187s before presented to the CDR, notices the request does not have all the supporting documentation, back it goes to the unit..
That 4187 is just not as not signed, not approved as if it have been signed and disproved by the approver.
NO, his PFC clerk can not disapprove it, but if given the task and authority, that same PFC may choose to not forwarded it for signature to his commander (The approver) if it has not met the requirements of the regulation for which the requests is summited, or the wants of the approver.
IE, 4187 request for deletion of assignment consideration.
Reg might say needs to be supported with a LES, statement of justification from the requester.
The approver may also require the letter of justification to include a career plan and counseling session from his CSM before he will consider the request to contact HRC and get the Sm off DS assignment orders.
If that PFC clerk charged with reviewing all 4187s before presented to the CDR, notices the request does not have all the supporting documentation, back it goes to the unit..
That 4187 is just not as not signed, not approved as if it have been signed and disproved by the approver.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
SGM Erik Marquez - Very true SGM Marquez! As my company's Orderly Room NCOIC, I kick back several documents each day because they lack supporting documentation, have improper formatting, have numerous glaring spelling/grammatical errors, etc. I am a filter for my 1SG and Commander, so they do not waste their time looking at things that are wrong from the get-go.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SSG(P) (Join to see) - Exactly, your not a signature approver ....but just as critical as the commander in getting that request signed...
No different then a CSM whose name nor signature is no place on a 4187 for approval...Yet that request will never be seen by the approver until the CSM who is in the work flow has reviewed and signed off>
I would have considered it a failure on my part if my commander so much as laid eyes on a 4187 that I had not already reviewed and "approved"
No different then a CSM whose name nor signature is no place on a 4187 for approval...Yet that request will never be seen by the approver until the CSM who is in the work flow has reviewed and signed off>
I would have considered it a failure on my part if my commander so much as laid eyes on a 4187 that I had not already reviewed and "approved"
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