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I have to say that being a new officer is one of the most challenging jobs in the military due to the learning curve being so steep. I have lost count on how many times I have been called out for being a LT but the truth of the matter is that just about every time this occurs I actually have more time in service than the person blindly calling out a LT. If I am wrong I have no problem with someone offering their opinion but to simply pull the "LOST LT" card and continue with challenging everything simply due to that person is newly commissioned is absurd.
I know LT's lack experience, that is why they have an PSG there to guide them. To be honest I still don't and will never understand why one would try to elevate themselves above their PL or just any LT. That LT is one set of promotion orders away from being your next company commander.
Just look at it this way. Two 2LTs won Best Ranger. Just finishing it is an accomplishment but winning it is as a LT is unheard of till now. They competed against NCOs and other Officers from all over the Army and won.
What have you seen in your unit? Have you seen this go over board beyond the typical compass joke?
I know LT's lack experience, that is why they have an PSG there to guide them. To be honest I still don't and will never understand why one would try to elevate themselves above their PL or just any LT. That LT is one set of promotion orders away from being your next company commander.
Just look at it this way. Two 2LTs won Best Ranger. Just finishing it is an accomplishment but winning it is as a LT is unheard of till now. They competed against NCOs and other Officers from all over the Army and won.
What have you seen in your unit? Have you seen this go over board beyond the typical compass joke?
Officers
NCOs
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 6
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I have to agree with MSG Carl Cunningham on this. Yes, 2LT's are new leaders, and yes, it's all in good fun to make the map jokes, but as an NCO if you don't take the time to mentor them, and as a fellow leader "have their back" you are screwing up. For what? a laugh?
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT Richard H. you're the first person I've seen on here that is also from Corpus Christi!
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The LT that has years of on the ground in unit relative experience to the assignment they find them selfs in as a newly commissioned LT are RARE,,,exceedingly rare.
The chances of being branched and then further assigned to a job that aligns with ones enlisted experiences are astronomical. So the LT Rosa situation is an outlier and as much as I admire CPT (Join to see) for only looking for the best way forward even when confronted with an idiot NCO, his case is not typical.
So typical.. a 2LT, newly assigned to the unit, or a 1LT who was in the S3 shop a few months, over at the S1 shop, up at DIV and now finds them selfs newly promoted and in charge of a platoon.
Its simple// Lieutenant, the decision is always yours to decide.....but reality is, it will be many months until you have the breadth of knowledge and experience to make that decision unilaterally with a chance of success being more than dumb luck..... So use and rely on me, the NCO....give me the authority to make the decisions you don't need to, talk with me before the decisions you must make when ever possible, and be ready to change your decision when it proves to be wrong, and it will be more often then you want...but that is one of the ways you gain the experience you so greatly need.
To respond to LT Rosa's statement of an NCO that "elevate themselves above their PL" Yes it happens and should not..., as does the young inexperienced LT attempting to assert his new found authority by making choices and decisions they have neither the institutional knowledge or experience to make successfully, but they do so anyway because "IM IN CHARGE" Yes you are LT and now your in charge of a task or mission that failed and it could have been avoided had you just took a min to discuss how to best accomplish the mission with NCO's and other enlisted that have successfully accomplished this task before.
The LT that fails, and understand it could have been avoided, I can work with that LT.
The LT that fails and blames every one else for that failure ...that LT is destined to fail again, and again, setting them selfs up to be that Angry Major passed over twice having never had a company to command, or had it oh so briefly but cut short when the company failed time and time again to complete the BN commanders intent or assigned mission to standard.
When I see a company commander or Maj that does not trust, use his NCO's its of one of two flavors. In the past someplace there were senior NCO's that let him down, let him fail when they did not need to..Did not help him to grow, and earn the respect of his subordinates.
Or it is an officer that tries to lead though the authority giving to him by rank, by UCMJ. That officer is fond of telling people he is in charge.... Something real leaders know, need never be done, if your an actual leader not someone with just paper authority.
“Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.”
― Margaret Thatcher
"If you find yourself having to remind everyone all of the time that you're the sergeant major and you're in charge, you're probably not."
― SMA Dailey
The chances of being branched and then further assigned to a job that aligns with ones enlisted experiences are astronomical. So the LT Rosa situation is an outlier and as much as I admire CPT (Join to see) for only looking for the best way forward even when confronted with an idiot NCO, his case is not typical.
So typical.. a 2LT, newly assigned to the unit, or a 1LT who was in the S3 shop a few months, over at the S1 shop, up at DIV and now finds them selfs newly promoted and in charge of a platoon.
Its simple// Lieutenant, the decision is always yours to decide.....but reality is, it will be many months until you have the breadth of knowledge and experience to make that decision unilaterally with a chance of success being more than dumb luck..... So use and rely on me, the NCO....give me the authority to make the decisions you don't need to, talk with me before the decisions you must make when ever possible, and be ready to change your decision when it proves to be wrong, and it will be more often then you want...but that is one of the ways you gain the experience you so greatly need.
To respond to LT Rosa's statement of an NCO that "elevate themselves above their PL" Yes it happens and should not..., as does the young inexperienced LT attempting to assert his new found authority by making choices and decisions they have neither the institutional knowledge or experience to make successfully, but they do so anyway because "IM IN CHARGE" Yes you are LT and now your in charge of a task or mission that failed and it could have been avoided had you just took a min to discuss how to best accomplish the mission with NCO's and other enlisted that have successfully accomplished this task before.
The LT that fails, and understand it could have been avoided, I can work with that LT.
The LT that fails and blames every one else for that failure ...that LT is destined to fail again, and again, setting them selfs up to be that Angry Major passed over twice having never had a company to command, or had it oh so briefly but cut short when the company failed time and time again to complete the BN commanders intent or assigned mission to standard.
When I see a company commander or Maj that does not trust, use his NCO's its of one of two flavors. In the past someplace there were senior NCO's that let him down, let him fail when they did not need to..Did not help him to grow, and earn the respect of his subordinates.
Or it is an officer that tries to lead though the authority giving to him by rank, by UCMJ. That officer is fond of telling people he is in charge.... Something real leaders know, need never be done, if your an actual leader not someone with just paper authority.
“Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't.”
― Margaret Thatcher
"If you find yourself having to remind everyone all of the time that you're the sergeant major and you're in charge, you're probably not."
― SMA Dailey
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CPT (Join to see)
This is the best post I think I have ever seen on RP. In my time in the Guard I have seen so many of my peers disrespected by their NCOs. I once knew an NCO that said that the PL should sit down and shut up while they run the platoon. That bothers me to no end. I looked up to my PL when I was enlisted. When I hit the guard as an NCO I did notice a drastic difference in the quality of junior officers from the regular Army and National Guard. I found that the PLs I had in the Regular Army were much more well developed and confident. They were much more of a leader. But in the regular Army they were given more training. When I was my latter part of the Guard I found my peers to have been much more well rounded than when I first came in. On my last deployment my peer and commander excelled in their tasks. When I first came into the Guard I didn't have confidence in my leadership.
But as you are saying I think I might be one of the oldest PLs around. You usually don't don't see a PL with 16 years in the army. Often I am one of the oldest soldiers in my platoon. But usually once I speak with the NCOs they realize that.
But as you are saying I think I might be one of the oldest PLs around. You usually don't don't see a PL with 16 years in the army. Often I am one of the oldest soldiers in my platoon. But usually once I speak with the NCOs they realize that.
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SGM Erik Marquez
LOL, I just realized, I posted on a 3 plus year old thread.... I got Rally Point Feed'ed...
It popped up i read and responded not seeing it was started in 2014.
CPT (Join to see) thank you, but it was easy, I just reached back to what was reality and wrote it out.
I supported even my most ignorant and self entitled offices not for their sake many times but because I don't fail well. If the task or mission is deemed a failure or disaster, its my fault,, either due to my decisions or that i could not influence the decision maker well enough to convince them to approach the task a better way.
So even when the LT was several slices short of a full loaf, the MSG "in charge" was more interested in staying dry in the building and drinking coffee then being on the rail line observing, pulling chain and binders when needed and finding a better way or stopping something that as going to get folks hurt .even when that "leader" that out ranked me was screwed up, I did what ever I could, sometimes against the wishes of said person in charge to accomplish the mission.
My luck held for 28 years... when I could have been brought up on charges...it was not to be so, as more senior folks were gushing over the success of the movement, the mission, the plan and execution.
So what was that LTC, that CSM, or earlier, SFC, LT, CPT, MSG going to do?? Tell the BC they wanted me ART 15'ed for failing to follow directions that would have resulted in mission failure? Hand the BDE CDR a counseling statement and UCMJ request on me for ignoring the written OPORDER and accomplishing the task not just to standard with "acceptable" and anticipated loss, but on time, no equipment or personnel losses allowing follow on missions to take place uninterrupted?
No those weak leaders stood by in the spot light and seethed they could do nothing .. The truly better leaders....they acknowledged someone else affected a better way, learned from it and took two things away....a new, other way to get that task or mission done, and a reminder, they don't always have the better idea or decision.. LISTENING to your subordinates is as an important part of leading them. I only wish I had understood that in 1986 when I was promoted to SGT..... but i lacked the experience at that point, so had to learn it as I went.
It popped up i read and responded not seeing it was started in 2014.
CPT (Join to see) thank you, but it was easy, I just reached back to what was reality and wrote it out.
I supported even my most ignorant and self entitled offices not for their sake many times but because I don't fail well. If the task or mission is deemed a failure or disaster, its my fault,, either due to my decisions or that i could not influence the decision maker well enough to convince them to approach the task a better way.
So even when the LT was several slices short of a full loaf, the MSG "in charge" was more interested in staying dry in the building and drinking coffee then being on the rail line observing, pulling chain and binders when needed and finding a better way or stopping something that as going to get folks hurt .even when that "leader" that out ranked me was screwed up, I did what ever I could, sometimes against the wishes of said person in charge to accomplish the mission.
My luck held for 28 years... when I could have been brought up on charges...it was not to be so, as more senior folks were gushing over the success of the movement, the mission, the plan and execution.
So what was that LTC, that CSM, or earlier, SFC, LT, CPT, MSG going to do?? Tell the BC they wanted me ART 15'ed for failing to follow directions that would have resulted in mission failure? Hand the BDE CDR a counseling statement and UCMJ request on me for ignoring the written OPORDER and accomplishing the task not just to standard with "acceptable" and anticipated loss, but on time, no equipment or personnel losses allowing follow on missions to take place uninterrupted?
No those weak leaders stood by in the spot light and seethed they could do nothing .. The truly better leaders....they acknowledged someone else affected a better way, learned from it and took two things away....a new, other way to get that task or mission done, and a reminder, they don't always have the better idea or decision.. LISTENING to your subordinates is as an important part of leading them. I only wish I had understood that in 1986 when I was promoted to SGT..... but i lacked the experience at that point, so had to learn it as I went.
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SGT Dave Tracy
"The LT that has years of on the ground in unit relative experience to the assignment they find them selfs in as a newly commissioned LT are RARE,,,exceedingly rare."
Hmm. No kiddin'? I wouldn't have thought it would be so rare. Perhaps it's my frame of reference which is not nearly as broad as yours, but my own experience with LTs was that most had relative military (MOS specific) experience prior to commissioning. I assumed a great many an LT out there made the jump from enlisted side; and as a related sidebar [Warning: Opinion ahead!], generally I think some of the best Officers are former enlisted.
When I was AD Infantry most of the LTs I had or were in sister platoons had been NCOs or lower enlisted prior to commissioning, and thus had years of Grunt experience. Similar story when I went into the Reserves. That said, one of my better AD PLs was a fresh-off-the-street LT; conversely--and bar none!--the most incompetent PL I ever knew had made the jump from 11B SSG, and I am most grateful to have never deployed under THAT guy!
Sure, most fresh-off-the-street LTs are essentially glorified Privates in terms of their job knowledge in the military, but I get where LT Rosa is justifiably irritated with the presumption that LTs are dumb. Some take to the job naturally even without much experience and some like in his case, has all this relevant knowledge and experience.
Sidebar #2: I was happy with my choice to remain enlisted. I had the college, and the big GT score. When I was in the Reserves, I was strongly encouraged to do their direct commission and take the open PL slot for MY platoon. Sure didn't want to do that! So yeah, I could have entered as an Officer or gone OCS after a couple years in, which I thought about, and if I had, I could have made a few more bucks, but in retrospect my choice was a good one for all stakeholders I think. Besides, whether I came in off the street or commissioned after a few years in, I don't know if I'd have been any good at being an Officer, but even though it was low-level, and I'd never be confused with the NCO of The Century, in my roll, I think I was beneficial to my unit and the Army in ways I can't say I would otherwise.
Hmm. No kiddin'? I wouldn't have thought it would be so rare. Perhaps it's my frame of reference which is not nearly as broad as yours, but my own experience with LTs was that most had relative military (MOS specific) experience prior to commissioning. I assumed a great many an LT out there made the jump from enlisted side; and as a related sidebar [Warning: Opinion ahead!], generally I think some of the best Officers are former enlisted.
When I was AD Infantry most of the LTs I had or were in sister platoons had been NCOs or lower enlisted prior to commissioning, and thus had years of Grunt experience. Similar story when I went into the Reserves. That said, one of my better AD PLs was a fresh-off-the-street LT; conversely--and bar none!--the most incompetent PL I ever knew had made the jump from 11B SSG, and I am most grateful to have never deployed under THAT guy!
Sure, most fresh-off-the-street LTs are essentially glorified Privates in terms of their job knowledge in the military, but I get where LT Rosa is justifiably irritated with the presumption that LTs are dumb. Some take to the job naturally even without much experience and some like in his case, has all this relevant knowledge and experience.
Sidebar #2: I was happy with my choice to remain enlisted. I had the college, and the big GT score. When I was in the Reserves, I was strongly encouraged to do their direct commission and take the open PL slot for MY platoon. Sure didn't want to do that! So yeah, I could have entered as an Officer or gone OCS after a couple years in, which I thought about, and if I had, I could have made a few more bucks, but in retrospect my choice was a good one for all stakeholders I think. Besides, whether I came in off the street or commissioned after a few years in, I don't know if I'd have been any good at being an Officer, but even though it was low-level, and I'd never be confused with the NCO of The Century, in my roll, I think I was beneficial to my unit and the Army in ways I can't say I would otherwise.
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For what it's worth, 2nd Lieutenants don't have nearly as much of a stigma in the Marine Corps as they do in the Army. In the Marine Corps, 2nd Lieutenants have the title of Platoon Commander. There is still some joking around in the Corps, but for the most part, Marine 2nd Lieutenants are just the OIC and that's that. This is probably because the Marine Corps is smaller and can be more selective, and because the initial training is quite a bit more thorough.
I never really understood 2nd Lieutenant jokes until I transferred to the Army (as a Captain) and began seeing how Lieutenants were treated, which was fairly foreign to me.
I never really understood 2nd Lieutenant jokes until I transferred to the Army (as a Captain) and began seeing how Lieutenants were treated, which was fairly foreign to me.
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CPT (Join to see)
I really question where the change in culture came in with relation of the Army and Marines. I know back in WWII the Officers play a very large role and the NCOs were not near what they are today. I think it shows a sense of unprofessionalism. Not in the sense of the joke in itself but in the sense that they undermine the Officer and really don't respect them.
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