Ashli Babbitt's family announces lawsuit against Capitol Police officer in fatal shooting

I enjoyed reading the first line of your post PO1. I've walked both sides of the law enforcement tunnel PO1 Keller. Military's and Civilian's. Yes; I only attained the rank of SSgt in the military...but in the Civilian World, I made it as far up the ladder you can go.

In the military the most critical position I held... was the Security Supervisor of a nuclear weapons storage area. Every cop in there was under my command. The elements to achieve that post were simple... if my parents, son, daughter, spouse was held by a terrorist to exchange for a nuke, I had two options, #1. Walk away and let another take command, #2. Watch as my direct orders would most likely take the lives of my own family. There was no third option.

Our Capitol is owned by...the taxpayers. It is public property, but a restricted and controlled area...which now, in my professional and personal opinion, is treated like a no lone nuclear controlled zone where the ultimate penalty is killing those who enter it.

Is this where we had to go?

There were too many options prior to the use of deadly force that have not been quarterbacked by the mass media, nor by someone as normal as...say you.

I dont know who the officer was, I dont know him or her. I didn't go to the same school as he or she did, but I can tell you the civilian police training I went to at one point in time was the 5th toughest in the United States.

Deadly Force is always the final option, and never the first. The use of force continuum is very simple... Appearance, then Verbal Commands maybe with a display of your duty firearm, then a Physical Restraint or a Takedown Maneuver, then a Baton or Chemical Dispersal, K9 release is about here as well, then its a center mass shot and a failure drill if that didn't stop the action..i.e. two to the chest one to the head, repeat as necessary or until the action is stopped.

Every State has adopted a level of seriousness of crimes, petty, full misdemeanor and then felony classes from 4 to a Capitol in New Mexico...some States have a class 5 felony and the punishments for all felonies dictates time in sentencing from normally 18 months to life. Most death penalties have been set aside in almost every State... except a few.

Trespassing in my State is, A PETTY MISDEMEANOR. The lowest of crimes. Warning shots have been prohibited for years now...the liberal philosophy of shooting warning shots encourages shooting back... and what goes up comes back down.

So now I can go to the second part of your post...What would I do if someone kept trying to break into my house. Well... I've been burglarized while in court testifying and filing criminal complaints against burglars who took my step grandmothers ashes and scattered them across my Step Uncles floor... Does that count?

If t does, Then if I had been at home, they would have had a gun capable of creating their next meeting with Jesus...rapidly, Living 15 miles from the nearest ambulance has its disadvantages for injured people.... But...the situation would have to show more than someone pushing in my front door. There has to be more than just pushing in my front door for me to kill the SOB's...Intent, Capability Opportunity... All three must be answered and you do this in micro seconds... All three must be present, or your going to have issues in the Democratic run Courts where I am at...

I wish I could read the police officers report... But that isn't going to happen. How articulate the officer must have been, to justify killing an American on American Soil, during a protest that was turning into a riot due to the property damage... I.e. Criminal Damage to property less than $1,000.00 (for the door) which is yet again, a Misdemeanor crime in my State.... The second lowest form of crime... But then, who busted the door? The girl killed? or another? If the girl didn't bust the door, she is still only committing the crime of... yep... Trespassing.

Unfortunately; You and I don't have all the facts, all the reports, but as a former Chief of Police, I can tell you, I did have the ability and responsibility to "Quarterback my officers decisions" and render judgement as appropriate. If the punishment or reward was wrong, Only I had to answer to that at that point in time.

In the military, if you crossed that 6" red line painted around a hot Buff...I told you to jump...you damn well better jump and jump as high as I told you and where to jump too... or I shot your ass... It is not the same standard with Civilian Law enforcement... and it never should be.

Lastly, we shall never know what the intentions of this woman were. She is not here to tell us anymore. You can say that she had the "Intent" of doing something, but she wasn't given the "Opportunity", as she didn't close enough distance between her and whoever was in the room for a hand to hand confrontation to have the "Opportunity" to have the "Capability" to commit another criminal act.

No gun, no opportunity, because distance for a firearm to be effective can vary but normally a handgun is less than 50 feet. No knife or other handheld weapon, "Capability" gets tossed out the window.

The only classic example I can use is this... If I have a bow and arrow, And I aim it at a jet liner 30,000 feet up in the air while I am on the ground, and I utter I'm gonna shoot that Sumbitch down and let loose the arrow... Intent is there, Opportunity might be there, but I dont have the Capability to do harm to the jet. No known common bow and arrow
can dispel an arrow 30,000 feet.

Same event, but now I'm on the plane at 30,000 feet with a cross bow and I say I'm going to kill the pilot and crash the jet and kill us all... as I load the crossbow with an arrow capable of puncturing the air frame or door of the pilots chambers...

Its a split second job police have. The "Movements" going on right now are trying to further define those split second decisions... or move and further define the goalposts on crimes committed. Its an impossibility and diminishing police powers will not accomplish shit.

If an officer commits a crime, in todays age of post Rodney King, they can and are held responsible. There are some police officers who should have never been an officer. There are some educated officers who, would be better placed into a educators job in elementary school as well.

You asked...

That is, in my humble opinion...

Thank you for the response! It is well thought out and I appreciated reading it. I will attempt to keep this brief so we don't lose each other's points in a wall of text.

"There were too many options prior to the use of deadly force that have not been quarterbacked by the mass media, nor by someone as normal as...say you." What other option did this officer have to prevent her and her group from entering the chamber? I would be willing to bet that there were verbal commands, but they had already pushed past police officers who I am certain were attempting to disperse the crowd using non-lethal force (but that is all conjecture). Furthermore, this officer likely only had a gun. He likely didn't have a baton, or a taser. The door was also additionally barricaded. There were preventative measures in place that were overcome by the group.

Second, I think there is a lot of minimization of this event. It is easy to say that she was just trespassing at that point. But she was shot attempting to come through the door. It doesn't matter who broke the door, she was to be the first one through the breach. Had they all just stopped outside the door, she would likely be alive. I think there are a lot of people who are being intellectually dishonest with themselves to justify their outrage over this officer's actions. Like I said in my initial response, what do you think would have happened had those protesters made it through the door into a room full of lawmakers that they were mad at it? Maybe it would have been a "dog that caught the car" situation. Maybe they would have thought to themselves, "Now what? didn't expect to make it this far." But also, maybe it would have gone very, very badly.

The question that must be answered is: Could she have been reasonably perceived by the officer who shot her as an imminent violent threat? Flip the script and make this about a liberal mob attempting to get at Trump, would we feel the same way?

I do agree with you. There are people trying to move the goalposts.

As far as our homes go, there are several states where homeowners do not need to divine intent. Once you pass that line, it's on. And, you know, we get an after-the-fact look at things, but I don't know what that officer thought.

Here is a synced video of various angles of her shooting: https://mirror.fro.wtf/reddit/post/1288 (Warning: Death)

Here is a report that does this situation better justice than I could: https://www.dailysignal.com/2021/01/25/based-on-videos-officers-use-of-force-against-babbitt-justified/

I can look at a video and critic the hell out of it. Sorta like watching the Vietnam war movies and observing blank adaptors on the muzzles... Fine line.

PO1 Keller, I do not see the justification of "Deadly force" in your video clips. Even more now than my previous limited information and knowledge. Which is why I answered your post as I did not have information to dispel my suspicions that the officer...overreacted or reacted too quickly.

The "Intent" to commit what crime, was never, and is still never...established. I can see that now, albeit more clearly. I didn't see her damaging the glass door.

I saw her jump into a busted door window frame, busted by others, and get shot.

The suspect (aka Victim) never made it onto the floor beyond the doorframe where others were located. The voices of all pretty much conceal any verbal commands the officer may have been giving... So its his or her words or statements over the videos recordings.

The "Opportunity" to commit a crime (whatever the crime was going or not going to be) was never within the ability's of the suspects (victims) grasp.

The officer's report will contain this line "I was in fear of my life or the lives of others". That I know for certain. That is the "catch all phrase" that every trained officer is taught in basic training and use of force classes.

I humbly submit, in my personal and professional 38 year career, the use of deadly force was not at the critical point when the "Victim" was shot.

It was getting closer... but it was not at that juncture. Therefore, I feel comfortable reclassifying the suspect... as a "Victim" of police misconduct.

The Officer must be held to answer why he did not wait another 3-5 seconds, until the victim was onto the floor and committing some other kind of action to cause him or her to fear for his or her life and the lives of others.

Why do I say this? In far too many recent examples of other politicians screaming to their followers to "Get up in their faces", "Confront them in public", "Do not let them rest" and those types of events have resulted in a screaming match by those persons...usually ending up in a one way fiasco where the confronted politician simply walks away under escort.

Another fact I can take up with issue is... The officers standing with the group on the same side as the door glass being smashed... walked away. They left the one officer in the room to defend the entire room by their selves? The concept of peace through numbers must have been omitted from their basic police training... and it was replaced with, retreat and regroup even though we are right here and have the ability to back up that officer and those persons in that room and prevent them from being____________??? Confronted??? Assaulted??? Mocked??? Battered??? CUSSED AT???

We dont know and we never will. We wont know because the officer in that room shot a firearm into a person. Did you see and hear what happened afterwards...? The crowd became lull... The "gunshot sound" did what a gunshot does... People stopped doing what they were doing. So, back to the liberal response on firing warning shots being "outlawed" in my first response... That training should be questioned. Millisecond decisions...

The reaction of the crowd... after the gunshot... doesn't match... the actions of a crowd with the "INTENT" to cause great bodily harm or death to others... Does it? You can argue that if the officer didn't shoot all day long that we dont know what would have happened... and I will continue to "Circle back" to three elements at play here... INTENT, CAPABILITY, and OPPORTUNITY.

The victim...never had... OPPORTUNITY, and a diminished CAPABILITY.

I submit it is extremely hard to kill or assault anyone while in the act of crawling through a broken window. Both hands are busy supporting the entry, both legs are on the frame, only 4 methods of attack can be accomplished by a human, the legs and hands. (95% of the time its the hands).

I'll use examples of a skewed police withdrawal that still resonates with me; (IMHO- POLICE MISCONDUCT through INTENTIONAL OVER CHICKENSHIT REACTIONS) McDonalds in San Ysidro, California, armed gunman, killing, active shooter, police stay outside until shooting stops... Luby's Cafeteria in Texas, police arrive, shooting still in progress, Police wait outside until the shooting subsides.

Those are two massive critical failures to act where the loss of lives' could have been mitigated had the original responding officers took immediate actions. Back to another statement I uttered, Some people should never be police officers...

That is a primary indicator to me, more than anything, that those officers on the same side as the protesters did not feel the crowd was a threat that included the possibility of death or great bodily harm to the others in that room, in the logical theory of "self defense and of others" was diminished significantly as they retreated.

So, the single armed officer in the room is empowered to kill, based and bolstered on his backup.... leaving him or her.

The fleeing officers will justify their actions using the term "I was ordered to leave or regroup". The concept of disobeying an order was never considered by the fleeing officers to aid their fellow officer in a very confrontational and stressful event.

Both fail in my opinion. Both should be held responsible or liable for their actions, or inactions.

“ The Officer must be held to answer why he did not wait another 3-5 seconds, until the victim was onto the floor and committing some other kind of action to cause him or her to fear for his or her life and the lives of others.”

Really? In 3-5 seconds, she’s through the door, and down the hall. Down that hall, there were hiding/escaping members of Congress.
Remember, this incident didn’t happen in a vacuum. These folks, and the victim, were a part of a larger mob. And you better believe that the cops were all communicating. The shooter most assuredly knew that outside, the mob was chanting things like “let’s kill pence” or “let’s go grab Pelosi”.

The mob got through the cops outside, the locked doors, fought their way in, etc. And at this point, they’re at inner hallways, only a few handful of meters away from members of Congress. The mob stated they had deadly intent. They demonstrated their ability and desire to penetrate the building. When presented with reinforced barricades into stated restricted areas, they attempted to fight through those.

Wait 3-5 seconds? If he had done that, 5 more would have been behind her, etc and that final firewall between the mob (with stated deadly intentions and members of Congress) would have failed. Instead, he instantly neutralized the threat, and the rest in that particular group had second thoughts about their actions. And most importantly, every member of Congress was kept safe.

This wasn’t McDonald’s or Lubys. And frankly, the police response was beyond tempered that day.