Posted on May 5, 2019
Blue states move to block President Trump from 2020 ballot
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Well to be clear they are not moving to block him from the ballot per se, they are saying that candidates need to release their tax returns to be on the ballot. if this was done at just about any other time before the last election this wouldn't have been seen as controversial because it was common practice and accepted that it was something all candidates to. It's only when you have someone that breaks all the norms that suddenly people feel they need to codify those norms.
It's the old expression about the one bad actor that ruins it for everyone.
It's the old expression about the one bad actor that ruins it for everyone.
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SPC Kevin Ford
SSgt Joseph Baptist I meant all presidential candidates. No moving of goalposts. If you misconstrued me, I'm sorry I should have been more clear. I've run for local public office and appeared on a ballot and I didn't release my tax returns so it would seem to be a strange claim for me to make that all candidates for elected office would need to do so, or do so out of common practice.
Financial records are in the public interest because they speak to a candidate's current potential conflicts of interest. I can't think of a POTUS in living memory that has voluntarily released college transcripts with grades (as you state, GW Bush's grades were leaked without his approval in 1999). If we want to make it standard to release them, great. But we shouldn't kid ourselves that this is any type of existing norm.
This also isn't a partisan issue. You can find many on the left who think presidential candidates should release their educational records:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/presidential-candidates-r_b_8979114
But for me, lots of people who have attained high office got poor grades. It just doesn't seem to be much or an indicator as to their competence what grades they got a few or more decades ago. Financial records, those speak to current potential conflicts of interest. That GW Bush was a bad student at an elite university in his youth ... meh.
Financial records are in the public interest because they speak to a candidate's current potential conflicts of interest. I can't think of a POTUS in living memory that has voluntarily released college transcripts with grades (as you state, GW Bush's grades were leaked without his approval in 1999). If we want to make it standard to release them, great. But we shouldn't kid ourselves that this is any type of existing norm.
This also isn't a partisan issue. You can find many on the left who think presidential candidates should release their educational records:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/presidential-candidates-r_b_8979114
But for me, lots of people who have attained high office got poor grades. It just doesn't seem to be much or an indicator as to their competence what grades they got a few or more decades ago. Financial records, those speak to current potential conflicts of interest. That GW Bush was a bad student at an elite university in his youth ... meh.
Presidential Candidates: Release Your Records and College Transcripts
Four years ago, Donald Trump, a Penn graduate, who routinely tells crowds how smart he is, rightly demanded that President Obama release his transcripts....
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SPC Kevin Ford
SSgt Joseph Baptist - I want presidential candidates to do so, yes. The potential damage caused to the country by someone sitting on a local board of education or board or finance is not the same as the potential damage to our country caused by someone who occupies the presidency.
I guess this really goes back to our first exchange on this thread. Context matters. If you don't understand context and the difference between the public's interest in potential financial conflicts of the president and some local official then I'm not sure I can help you. There is a reason why large firms typically put a much greater hiring scrutiny on their CEO than a janitor.
I guess this really goes back to our first exchange on this thread. Context matters. If you don't understand context and the difference between the public's interest in potential financial conflicts of the president and some local official then I'm not sure I can help you. There is a reason why large firms typically put a much greater hiring scrutiny on their CEO than a janitor.
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SPC Kevin Ford
CPT Gregory Hafera - Here's the thing about witch hunts, they were conducted on people who had very little say about the position they were in. Presidential candidates knowingly and purposely put themselves in a position where they are under extra scrutiny. This is why public figures are treated differently in the eyes of the law.
As far as Trump being opaque, he was opaque long before the Mueller investigation. That special investigation certainly wasn't witch hunt, or anything like it; it was for the purpose of investigating Russian interference in the election. That turned out to be very true. If Trump had kept his figurative trap shut and just let it go on he would have been exonerated on conspiracy and there would have been no question of obstruction. He did that to himself.
As far as Trump being opaque, he was opaque long before the Mueller investigation. That special investigation certainly wasn't witch hunt, or anything like it; it was for the purpose of investigating Russian interference in the election. That turned out to be very true. If Trump had kept his figurative trap shut and just let it go on he would have been exonerated on conspiracy and there would have been no question of obstruction. He did that to himself.
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SFC (Join to see)
Richard Nixon - "I'm not a crook"
November 17, 1973
LtCol Robert Quinter SPC Kevin Ford - Not "before" Watergate, but during...
Vice President Spiro Agnew engaged in kickbacks (bribery/extortion) while serving as a county official and the governor of Maryland that continued while in the White House. Just like Al Capone, Agnew failed to report and pay taxes on his ill gotten gains. In Aug 1973, Agnew took the position that a sitting vice president could not be indicted. Later, Agnew filed a motion to block indictment on the grounds that he was prejudiced by improper DoJ leaks. On 10 Oct 1973, Vice President Spiro Agnew plead no contest (guilty) to one felony count of tax evasion in exchange for dropping charges of political corruption and promptly resigned as vice president. Agnew was also fined $10,000 and put on 3-years unsupervised probation, but avoided both a jail sentence and further charges related to bribery, extortion, conspiracy, and other crimes.
Following Agnew's resignation, a more aggressive press began to demand more information on Nixon's taxes. Nixon didn't initially turn over his returns voluntarily. His tax paperwork was leaked by someone in the IRS and the reporter who published Nixon's tax returns won the Pulitzer Prize. The paperwork revealed that Nixon paid very little in taxes, to which the President replied on 17 Nov 1973: "...I welcome this kind of examination because people have got to know whether or not their president's a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." However, a critical examination of Nixon's federal tax returns got him into trouble and he was charged more than $465,000 in back taxes and the House Judiciary Committee, which was considering the impeachment of Nixon over Watergate, stated that it might investigate the possibility of tax fraud. California charged Nixon $5,302 for back state income taxes, penalties, and interest.
https://youtu.be/sh163n1lJ4M
http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readings.nsf/cf7c9c870b600b9585256df80075b9dd/f8723e3606cd79ec85256ff6006f82c3?OpenDocument (good read on the entire history)
"The revelation that Nixon had paid less than $6,000 in federal income tax while earning more than $790,000 of aggregate income during 1970, 1971, and 1972 caused a public outcry. Nixon's taxes were an issue that average citizens readily understood as compared to the constitutional issues raised by the Watergate investigation. Most taxpayers -- with far less income than Nixon -- had paid more federal income tax than the president."
(Interesting note: "By agreeing to pay $465,000, Nixon's wealth was reduced to half of the previous $988,522. One White House spokesman stated that Nixon was "almost totally wiped out" by the agreement (WSJ, Apr. 5, 1974). However, Nixon was fortunate to have had $433,000 in liquid assets to pay the tax deficiency.")
After Nixon's resignation, President Ford tried restoring the public's faith in government. Of particular concern was public perception that the IRS gave presidents special treatment and presidents didn't have to pay income tax like regular Americans. With the 1976 presidential campaign beginning, President Gerald Ford voluntarily publicly disclosed his 1975 tax return on 20 Apr 1976 beginning a tradition that was observed by presidential nominees until Trump.
Vice President Spiro Agnew engaged in kickbacks (bribery/extortion) while serving as a county official and the governor of Maryland that continued while in the White House. Just like Al Capone, Agnew failed to report and pay taxes on his ill gotten gains. In Aug 1973, Agnew took the position that a sitting vice president could not be indicted. Later, Agnew filed a motion to block indictment on the grounds that he was prejudiced by improper DoJ leaks. On 10 Oct 1973, Vice President Spiro Agnew plead no contest (guilty) to one felony count of tax evasion in exchange for dropping charges of political corruption and promptly resigned as vice president. Agnew was also fined $10,000 and put on 3-years unsupervised probation, but avoided both a jail sentence and further charges related to bribery, extortion, conspiracy, and other crimes.
Following Agnew's resignation, a more aggressive press began to demand more information on Nixon's taxes. Nixon didn't initially turn over his returns voluntarily. His tax paperwork was leaked by someone in the IRS and the reporter who published Nixon's tax returns won the Pulitzer Prize. The paperwork revealed that Nixon paid very little in taxes, to which the President replied on 17 Nov 1973: "...I welcome this kind of examination because people have got to know whether or not their president's a crook. Well, I'm not a crook. I've earned everything I've got." However, a critical examination of Nixon's federal tax returns got him into trouble and he was charged more than $465,000 in back taxes and the House Judiciary Committee, which was considering the impeachment of Nixon over Watergate, stated that it might investigate the possibility of tax fraud. California charged Nixon $5,302 for back state income taxes, penalties, and interest.
https://youtu.be/sh163n1lJ4M
http://www.taxhistory.org/thp/readings.nsf/cf7c9c870b600b9585256df80075b9dd/f8723e3606cd79ec85256ff6006f82c3?OpenDocument (good read on the entire history)
"The revelation that Nixon had paid less than $6,000 in federal income tax while earning more than $790,000 of aggregate income during 1970, 1971, and 1972 caused a public outcry. Nixon's taxes were an issue that average citizens readily understood as compared to the constitutional issues raised by the Watergate investigation. Most taxpayers -- with far less income than Nixon -- had paid more federal income tax than the president."
(Interesting note: "By agreeing to pay $465,000, Nixon's wealth was reduced to half of the previous $988,522. One White House spokesman stated that Nixon was "almost totally wiped out" by the agreement (WSJ, Apr. 5, 1974). However, Nixon was fortunate to have had $433,000 in liquid assets to pay the tax deficiency.")
After Nixon's resignation, President Ford tried restoring the public's faith in government. Of particular concern was public perception that the IRS gave presidents special treatment and presidents didn't have to pay income tax like regular Americans. With the 1976 presidential campaign beginning, President Gerald Ford voluntarily publicly disclosed his 1975 tax return on 20 Apr 1976 beginning a tradition that was observed by presidential nominees until Trump.
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