Would you have opened fire on Dylan Noble?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 18:24:52 -0400

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/video-is-released-in-police-shooting-of-dylan-noble-in-fresno.amp.html?client=ms-android
My question is this. Watching the body cam from multiple POVs in the same situation, same information available as those officers had would you have shot yourself? Regardless of whether or not you believe you would have pulled the trigger do you think the shooting was justified based on the content of the video? Specifically, do you think the third and fourth shots were necessary or justified, again regardless of whether you would have taken the first or second? And finally if you would not have shot what do you believe would have been appropriate/effective and why?

Personally I believe the first shot fired was justified under the circumstances and believe that in the same situation I would have taken that first shot. I don't believe any of the subsequent shots were either necessary or appropriate, (although I admit the second shot might still be defensible under certain circumstances) In fact they seem to be the result of a lack of tactical proficiency and possibly even panic. Shouldn't the officer who fired rushed to restrain the suspect and provide first aid/secure the weapon as necessary while his partner pulled security?

Fresno Police Shooting Video Shows Dylan Noble Ignoring Orders to Stop

Mr. Noble, a 19-year old white man, was shot after a traffic stop in June, and new video shows him advancing, hand behind his back, ignoring orders to stop.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 16 at 2016 6:50 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 18:50:09 -0400

Yes, joking around like you have a gun like that in today's world with all this police shootings going on. As many times as they told him "both hands on the air" I'm surprised they didn't shoot earlier.

Response by A1C Charles D Wilson made Jul 16 at 2016 6:56 PM

A1C Charles D Wilson — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 18:56:22 -0400

I say with 2 or more cops covering him..one should have used the taser while the others covered with weapons drawn. If he pulled anything out after taser shot then one would have to take the shot at him. I understand people getting upset with law enforcement..but there is always, even in the heat of battle, a way to resolve the issue.

Chuck D

p.s. I do support our law enforcement 100%

Response by SSG Byron Hewett made Jul 16 at 2016 8:14 PM

SSG Byron Hewett — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 20:14:04 -0400

This is an unfortunate case of suicide by cop.
For whatever reason Mr Noble refused direct and lawful orders from Officers due to his actions of reaching behind his back and into his waist band several times Officers were left with virtually no options because Mr Noble was non compliant he was reaching behind his back and into his waistband where Officers could not see what he was attempting to get at or retrieve which caused himself to become a threat to everyone involved and everyone in the surrounding area in their location.
In this case there is no question that due to Mr Noble's actions and his refusal to comply the legal and lawful orders given by law enforcement officers, Mr Noble placed himself and everyone else in that area in danger, the Officers involved in the shooting were legally and lawfully justified in their actions because they gave clear and concise instructions, they gave clear warning of the consequences of what would happen if he continued to fail to follow instructions.
Mr Noble clearly understood the instructions given and deliberately continued to disobey lawful orders given to him by Officers.
The Officers involved in this incident are clearly justified in their actions, their actions were NOT excessive because Mr Noble continued to act as threat. When Mr Noble was clearly no longer a threat Officers did request an ambulance code 3 which means that the ambulance needed the put a rush on it.
From what I could see in the video they did pull security because that's what they starting to do when the video ended.
Now as a matter of protocol and policy because they did have enough Officers on scene and the area was basically secure they would have started to search, secure, and begin aid until the ambulance arrived.
One thing to remember is law enforcement trading closely resemble the military training and protocols but because they are not soldiers and they are not in a combat zone, the way law enforcement agencies do things are going to be totally different in many ways and the training will be similar because the law enforcement agencies are considered paramilitary organizations.
In the 20 years I spent in the Army and the 10 years in law enforcement these guys did it by the book and never crossed any lines, when shooting incident investigation is all said and if it comes down to that it will more than likely be deemed a good shoot.
Will there be some or a lot of flack from the committee .... Probably a little if there is more then it will be a media fest and it will be because leftists like AL Sharpton send in the protesters and haters to try and start up another Ferguson, Orlando, Dallas or any number or other places where the mob got out of hand in recent months and years. So a little bit of caution would be wise and to stay way from those areas unless called up by your unit to
assist.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made Jul 16 at 2016 8:27 PM

Capt Michael Greene — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 20:27:11 -0400

Let me admit I have no experience as an LEO. Tough job. Shitty shoot.
True, the police were out in force looking for a guy walking around with a rifle, but there was no reason to think the black truck had anything to do with that. I think the patrolman had no reason to suspect Noble was the rifle man.
First, the black truck hesitated pulling over. Could be a million reasons for that, and probably this wasn't a factor.
Running the plate, they got no warrants or notices. So I wonder why the cops drew weapons even before the cars actually stopped? They must have been primed for action by something I don't see.
Noble acts weird walking around. He sometimes hides his hand.
Then Officer Number One shoots him. For having a hidden hand.
Seems to me the officers, three of them at least, should have taken up flanking positions using the vehicles as cover, and surrounded the boy. They could have just waited him out. What was the hurry?

Shotgun guy could have switched to taser, especially after Noble was on the ground. But nobody's perfect. Lots of adrenaline flowing.

One problem with a gun-filled society is that when adrenaline flows, people die.

That's my really limited view. I note that Fresno has a very high shoot rate. I read that Fresno PD kills twice as many people as Chicago or LAPD per capita.

Response by SPC Kirk Gilles made Jul 16 at 2016 8:39 PM

SPC Kirk Gilles — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 20:39:43 -0400

Should one approach a wounded animal who is still showing its teeth? In this case, potentially hiding his teeth? Should one trust his life to a person who continues, even when shot once, with his charade? Yes it's a Suicide by Cop scenario. But he doesn't love cops either. He continues to display the threat. He knows it. If both hands were presented and open then yes, he would be alive today. He didn't want to live.
Chief Brown in Dallas made a great analogy of the difficulties we face. He said that everything no wants to deal with is given to the cops. Loose dogs, give it to the cops, mental health, give to the cops, parental issues, give it to the cops. So in this case both mental health and parental issues were forced on the cops. Believe me, no one benefits on this. The cops get second and third guessed by their bosses, peers, community. All say, "I would have done this or that..." The DA decides whether to prosecute the officers. The Feds do the same. The family sues the agency and the officers if possible. The cameras showed it all play out. 60 times he's told to comply? But it's still not enough.
Mr Sterling is physically tackled. He is shot at the closest range; contact. Everyone is horrified. Even when it's a cop robot doing the killing its wrong.

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Jul 16 at 2016 9:22 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 21:22:12 -0400

Second guessing the people on the scene is easy. I may or may not have shot Mr. Noble. It depends on if I felt that my life (or someone else's) was in danger at the time. Personally I probably would not have shot him when he was that far away however my hesitation has almost gotten me killed a couple of times. As far as firing multiple rounds I was taught for many years to fire at least two rounds to center mass. If he was still moving I was taught to fire two more. The purpose of firing is to end the threat and you should keep firing until the threat has ended which is also a judgement call.
Tasers sound like an easy solution to everything but they are not. They are only good at short distances and a number of things can cause them to fail to do the job.

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Jul 16 at 2016 10:14 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 22:14:16 -0400

I would have shot him in the leg or foot. I don't understand why Cops are trained to shoot three times in the chest...why not just wound them and stop the killings?

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 16 at 2016 10:46 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 22:46:10 -0400

Law enforcement is dealing with life and death decisions with split second changes in the threat level. The first clue you are a bad guy is hostility and non-compliance. If a police officer told me to paint my butt blue and do the antler dance, I would paint my butt blue and do the antler dance. If I have a problem with his conduct and how he treats me, I will deal with it later, at the station, with his/her chain of command. If it is truly outrageous, I will enjoy spending the award from my lawsuit. No matter what I will be alive.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jul 16 at 2016 11:36 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 23:36:15 -0400

When I was assigned to security duties, my superiors told me that any person not fully complying with the direction of my Marines was marching down a road that may lead to the application of deadly force.

The typical reaction time to an increase in threat posture is about 2/10ths of a second. That is not a round down range, that is realizing the posture has changed, now you must orient yourself to what the change means, formulate an appropriate reaction, and put it into motion, (the OODA Loop). That can put you a full two to four seconds behind your opponent. That means he can have 1-2 rounds down range at you, or he can cross 40-80 feet of open space to stick a knife in you.

It is a Hollywood myth that center mass shots are necessarily immediately incapacitating. I have heart shot elk that have continued to run a hundred of my paces or more, then fully stood up on my approach, more than two minutes after the shot. Had I not kept distance and obstacles between the animal and myself, I could have easily been seriously injured or killed. I know hunters that have been badly mauled by feral pigs that had fatal center mass shots. A second shot is not a separate decision, it is part and parcel of the decision to apply deadly force. It is my understanding that the human brain is capable of directing the body's movements for almost four minutes, without heart function. Given that information, how do you know that a suspect that goes down is incapacitated?

We need to teach children to fully comply with police commands, offer no resistance, and save their outrage for the police station with the officers' supervisors. I'd rather be alive and spending my award from the lawsuit, than dead.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jul 17 at 2016 12:06 AM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Sun, 17 Jul 2016 00:06:15 -0400

Not a single one of us reading this can say definitively one way or the other because not a single one of us was standing there with a gun in hand and seeing what that officer saw or perceived that he saw.

Response by SPC Jeff Payne made Jul 17 at 2016 12:21 AM

SPC Jeff Payne — Sun, 17 Jul 2016 00:21:11 -0400

What choice did they have!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 17 at 2016 4:47 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jul 2016 16:47:43 -0400

BLM....where are you at?

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Jul 27 at 2016 4:11 PM

SGT Bryon Sergent — Wed, 27 Jul 2016 16:11:51 -0400

Well as a backseat quarterback, Probably! Not there not in the situation.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 27 at 2016 4:56 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Jul 2016 16:56:17 -0400

Since I was not there, I have no way of knowing how my reaction would have been had I been one of those cops.