Would you consider the Air Force to be a Profession of Arms or an Enterprise.

2015-08-07T08:11:17-04:00

I personally am tired of hearing our leadership call the Air Force an Enterprise. Every member of the Army is considered a Soldier, every member of the Corps a Marine, and every member of the Navy a Sailor. Even the Coast Guard identifies with Coastie. Sure we have the term Airman, but most
Don't identify with that. It is normally their career field. I might be crazy, but I believe if our leaders would begin to talk and act like we were a Profession of Arms, the morale and mentality would change. Airmen would take pride I'm what they do for the mission and quit watching the clock or maybe even help each other out. Curious if I am the only one that feels this way. Looking for perspectives from sister service folks as well.

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 8:12 AM

2015-08-07T08:12:41-04:00

My apologies. I was typing fast and failed to correct Core to Corps.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 8:14 AM

2015-08-07T08:14:17-04:00

I think kids join the Air Force because it's more of an enterprise but, I agree with your statement if your senior leaders put more emphasis on it the culture would eventually change. Discipline and your NCO Corps need a drastic overhaul.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Aug 7 at 2015 8:17 AM

2015-08-07T08:17:39-04:00

I think it's more so to do with the jobs that most Airman have. From what I saw working along side the Air Force in 2006 while on my last deployment to Iraq, most of the jobs they were doing is what I would consider "Enterprise" jobs. Sure, some where doing security and whatnot. Heck in 2003, while assigned to the 101st, our Air Force detachment went every where we did, slept where we slept, and ate what we ate; far from being "Enterprise". Yet for the most part, I've seen most Airman work in roles that were more on that level and less on the combat arms side.

Does it take anything away from their service? Heck no. The mission the men and women of the Air Force are completing are critical to the overall mission. They are saving lives daily. Bullets, food, repair parts and everything else the other branches use do not just grow out of the sand after all.

Response by Capt Christian D. Orr made Aug 7 at 2015 8:26 AM

2015-08-07T08:26:58-04:00

As I was USAF Security Forces (HOOAH!), most colleagues in my AFSC indeed saw it as a Profession of Arms. However, all too many (though certainly not all) troops in other AFSCs seemed to have this "civilian-in-uniform" non-warrior attitude, even after the realities of 9/11 and GWOT. Pretty damn frustrating it was.

Response by MSgt Jim Wolverton made Aug 7 at 2015 8:36 AM

2015-08-07T08:36:50-04:00

POA.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Aug 7 at 2015 9:14 AM

2015-08-07T09:14:39-04:00

Starting out in the Army, then switching to AF, I have been bothered by this very thing for many years now. I think it starts at the top.... The AF needs to put on their big girl panties and call themselves what they are.... A Profession of Arms. We have a primary goal of putting bombs on targets OR putting satellites into space. Everything else is secondary. In my opinion, an ENTERPRISE is a FOR PROFIT organization that actually DOES something like making a product, distribution of a product, financial backing for companies that make/distribute products, etc..... This whole "business model" that the AF has been using is a crock of crap and while it is somewhat going away, still is present in some places. As a NURSE, I am STILL in the Profession of Arms....I deploy to combat zones, carry a weapon, prefer to save a life, but am trained to take one in defense of myself or my patients....NONE of my civilian counterparts do any of that. THEY are part of an Enterprise, business, cooperation, etc. That is all.

Response by SrA Daniel Hunter made Aug 7 at 2015 9:15 AM

2015-08-07T09:15:31-04:00

I agree SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member it was one of the things that irritated me as a maintainer on my first enlistment. My secondary role was a protect the aircraft. Yet combat arms was a foot-note in my training. We joked that if the base was over run we should go grab the BFH or BFW out of the tool box. At the time, there was no hand-to-hand training at all not even in Basic. It leads many Airmen to feel they aren't really contributing to the fight. That is why when it came time to consider a different specialty I did. Actually my first inclination was to transfer to the Army and apply to be a Warrant Office. I was talked out of that by a Master Sergeant who was prior Army. So I went for MH-53J Flight Engineer for AFSOC.

The problem is, unless Airmen are treated like combat arms professionals by Command they will continue to act like it's an Enterprise.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 9:15 AM

2015-08-07T09:15:46-04:00

I can speak on account of my friend in the Air Force, who's sitting at a desk job day in and day out that he can't stand it. He loves the Air Force, but he's not happy with where he's at, and says if he had a mechanics job like myself (which Air Force and Navy/Marines have some pretty similar gear) he'd feel much more at home.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 9:27 AM

2015-08-07T09:27:12-04:00

In garrison, I have seen the AF present a more enterprise approach on handling it's internal processes (funding, growth & development, etc). However, for all of the deployed AF personnel that I have had the pleasure with deploying with, they were as tough and enduring as any of the other profession of arms (STRATAIR, Movement Control, EOD, etc).

Response by SGT William Howell made Aug 7 at 2015 9:53 AM

2015-08-07T09:53:32-04:00

Join the Air Force to build a resume. Join the Army to build character.

Response by 2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 10:12 AM

2015-08-07T10:12:10-04:00

I met an Air Force officer who told me how he would walk around base after hours and would always be interested in seeing how his airmen dressed outside of uniform. From kids having gauges/nose rings/etc, and I asked him if he corrected them. He told me that he, and many of his peers did not subscribe to the "service member 24/7" mindset. That once he took his uniform off for the day, he was no long an Air Force officer.

Shit completely boggled my mind.

Response by MSgt David Haupt made Aug 7 at 2015 11:02 AM

2015-08-07T11:02:17-04:00

Yes it starts from the Top in the Air Force. Everything from the Pilot looking uniforms to the AFSO21 coarse. We take training on line (CBTs) and think we are ready for the Combat. It also starts in Basic Training were they play Warrior and think they are ready to fight. About 2% of the AF affects everyone else...the Pilots. We are there for the Pilots to ensure they are ready to drop bombs on target. Everything from Finance to security issues. Now there are Specialties that are more like the ground fighters (Army)...Security Forces, CE, TRANS, Maintainers who will defend the base and die for the base. Even these specialties go outside the wire if needed to. The Securities Forces have been protecting bases outside of the wire in Iraq and Afghan. Yet is sad to say they do treat the AF as a Enterprise. Even Trans and CE have outside the wire missions they have filled...convoy duties. Not everyone is trained to pick up a weapon and fight the fight. Not everyone is trained to defend their self of the enemy does break wire. It needs to start at the Top with the way we are suppose to do business...Protect and defend.

Response by CMSgt John Momaney made Aug 7 at 2015 11:34 AM

2015-08-07T11:34:52-04:00

My Marine friends would call me a "Wing Nut" which would piss me off. I had no monicker to replace it with so Wing Nut it was. Over the years I would try to come up with something but never could grasp a word that fit. As you said Airmen applies but has no ring to it. " I was an Airmen." Or "I was an Air Forcer." Good luck on this.

Response by SMSgt Bryan Raines made Aug 7 at 2015 11:45 AM

2015-08-07T11:45:32-04:00

When I came in in 1982 the Air Force was focusing on the "Profession of Arms". Somewhere between then and 2009 the focus became more of a corporation than military. Some seem to forget that the military is specifically set up to kill people. Yeah we have other missions but that's what we do.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Aug 7 at 2015 12:14 PM

2015-08-07T12:14:11-04:00

When I was in the AF was called the "Blue Suit" service; we wore the company clothes but were primarily technicians. Some (mostly Marines) said that the blue suits were meant to distinguish us from the military.

As a matter of fact, after OTS I only stood in formation or marched twice in my five years of service, so there might be something to that.

Response by MSgt Robert Pellam made Aug 7 at 2015 12:15 PM

2015-08-07T12:15:48-04:00

(Disclaimer: This is my theory from being in the Air Force for 21 years as a Maintainer, and comes from a Maintenance point of view.)

The Air Force has been in the horrible position of being both a PoA and an Enterprise at times. The enterprise started back in the early 90's under the Gen. McPeak Era, but honestly was all ready going that way long before then. When I joined in 92 we were not expected to fight anything or anyone beside with our aircraft. Combat training in basic consisted of one day taring down the M-16 and the next day firing the weapon. That was it. Basic was only 6 weeks too.

When McPeak took over in the Mid 90's that is when our dress uniform went to the business suit we have now. We actually started wearing BDU uniforms with velcro patches on them, no other markings, And Quality Air Force was the buzz words. He wanted to shape it like the Aircraft Industry, and he did. As Leadership came and went they always retired into nice jobs in big business. Also we start the rise of the contractor. As troop strength reduced, the number of Aircraft didn't, but Contractors started to increase. Do you know the C-17 is a leased aircraft. I always Chuckle at that fact.

The "Oh CRAP" moment came in the 2000's after the government decided to fight 2 wars on different fronts. They turned to the Air Force for manning support and we were like. Ahhhhh? So that started the Warrior mentality, or should I say they tried to Shoe horn the Warrior mentality onto a bunch of enterprise workers. (because if we couldn't help the billions of dollars thrown at the military would go to the other services and not the Air Force) Combat training, Vehicle Convoy training, we were patched into places in the army to help out and from what I heard the army just chucked us into positions and prayed we didn't hurt ourselves.

Some of leadership took the Warrior ethos and actually pushed it. The Air Force PT program started in 2004, before that we rode stationary bicycles for PT exams. Programs like that have stayed and I think the AF is better for them. But the roots are still in the business area. Those Generals want to show the AF is military tough to get the money from Washington, but also show they can manage a business so they can get the Jobs when they retire. Airmen in the middle of all this just have to adapt and overcome. I wish all the active duty members all the luck in the world. It isn't going to get any easier any time soon.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 7 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-08-07T12:26:59-04:00

It is a profession of arms but there is an element of enterprise built in based on AFSC

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 1:16 PM

2015-08-07T13:16:44-04:00

I've been in the AF now for 11 years, and over that short amount of time, I've noticed the politics become ridiculous. My job is ground transportation, moving people and cargo to and from different locations. My job (like others) has adopted the customer service mindset. The customer is always right and along with that we can't say 'no,' even if it's against the AFI...to a certain degree.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind helping people get the mission done, I enjoy getting a 'thank you' to get the MISSION done, but when it goes against the AFI or hits that gray area where it screws over my guys or comes back and bites us in the butt later on, I have issues. And then I always run into the phrase, 'well, that's the way it's always been done.' I hate that phrase, just because that's how it's been done, that doesn't make it right. And many of these things go against regs anyway; for instance and for those that are pilots reading this, finny flights.

My leadership is always harping on customer service. But in my defense, good customer service isn't doing whatever the customer wants, but to give them the best options to get the result they want. However, if the customer doesn't get what they want, as in making us do the work when they are fully capable of doing it, they call commanders and we get chewed out about how bad we are doing.

Unfortunately, the AF has adopted the corporation or enterprise mindset and twisted it into calling it the mission. In my opinion, there's a reason why I wear a uniform and not a business suit.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 1:16 PM

2015-08-07T13:16:48-04:00

I think a lot of it has to do with the way things are taught. In the other services they are seen as a solider, sailor or marine first and a craftsman second. The Air Force has gotten into it the other way around. I am first a Dirtboy and second a Airman. I think this has more to with us looking like an Enterprise and less as a Profession of Arms then everyone else.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 1:27 PM

2015-08-07T13:27:30-04:00

I think the Air Force is similar to the other services in that BOBs/POGs are clock watchers. The difference is that the Air Force glorifies their Desk Pilots while the other services don't. The Marines/Army/Navy don't brag about their POGs, they talk up their combat units. The Air Force ridicules and/or hides/denies their combat units.

That isn't going to change. The Air Force is run by pilots, anything that detracts from pilots will be ignored.

Response by SSgt Kendall Byrd made Aug 7 at 2015 1:51 PM

2015-08-07T13:51:29-04:00

Never ever wasted time thinking of this. Considered myself an Airman from first day of basic till my last day in uniform. Is this seriously a concern?

Response by TSgt Gwen Walcott made Aug 7 at 2015 2:10 PM

2015-08-07T14:10:07-04:00

In the old days, they were a profession of arms; but with those that occupy Washington for the past few decades, who knows at this point

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 7 at 2015 2:40 PM

2015-08-07T14:40:09-04:00

: <<< flounder eyes

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Aug 7 at 2015 2:44 PM

2015-08-07T14:44:17-04:00

Enterprises do not directly impact our imperial powers.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 2:45 PM

2015-08-07T14:45:48-04:00

I believe that the Air Force has developed that mentality because of the stance of leadership. Many of my fellow Airman only fire a weapon at basic or if they are about to deploy. Unless they have a have a personally owned weapon. We receive almost no weapon training unless you are part of a carrier field like security forces or a combat focused carrier field. As an aircraft maintainer our training is mostly OJT. I think we get some of the "Enterprise mindset" from the amount of contractors we have swarming around us at times. I have no issues with the contractors but our supervision seems to defer to them over the NCO a bit. Most of our bases are a bit further from the combat area so there is less reason for combat or guard duty training. While we are good at our "Jobs" we have gone away from what many would consider a Profession of Arms mindset.
To get back to a "Profession of Arms" we would have to do several thing that I do not believe leadership would do.
1. Bring back mandatory squadron PT. Yes it would start our day earlier but it would also eat away at some of the people having to worry about their PT test. Every time thy make a big deal out of doing PT it lasts a week and then they scrap it because the pressure comes off. I have done plenty of 12 to 14 hour shifts. Even with 24 hour ops and having another shift come on to take over. If you make part of that 12-14 it will not hurt anyone.
2. Profession of Arms implies that we are all trained in using weapons. I have meet a 5 year staff that only fired a weapon at basic. They were at the same base the whole time and because their job never deployed. He asked to be but because of different reason he got pulled off the rotations. So when we took him out shooting it was scary. We had to start from the basics.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 2:47 PM

2015-08-07T14:47:10-04:00

I don't personally take offense to the term Enterprise. It's simply used to encompass the "whole" of whatever it's referencing. The Navy for example uses NAE (Naval Aviation Enterprise) when talking about all of Naval Aviation. I definitely don't think it's a negative.

I've actually seen the Air Force more commonly refer to everyone as Airmen than the Navy refer to everyone as Sailors. The only ones I know of truly consistent with this are Marines.

Response by MSgt Matthew Meindl made Aug 7 at 2015 3:49 PM

2015-08-07T15:49:28-04:00

Having maintained ICBM's in SAC during the cold war, I have always considered it a profession of arms. No matter what role a person has in the Air Force, it all contributes to the end mission, defending the U.S., and that takes arms.

Response by TSgt Melissa Post made Aug 7 at 2015 7:02 PM

2015-08-07T19:02:20-04:00

I agree too many people just think if it as an 7-5 job and after that they are no longer an airman. Wrong. You are an airman 24/7/365. They say once a marine always a marine, well once an airman always an airman. I was recently talking to my ncoic about how I have only been in for four years but I forgot how to be a civilian after 2 (and that is being generous)! This isn't just a job it's a lifestyle.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 7:10 PM

2015-08-07T19:10:50-04:00

I totally agree.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 9:55 PM

2015-08-07T21:55:44-04:00

I also share your view. It would impact our morale positively. Our esprit de corps is so low because we are run like a business and not a team. Soldiers and marines identify with their title. It's very important because it gives you something to rally behind. Just my opinion.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Aug 9 at 2015 10:12 AM

2015-08-09T10:12:57-04:00

I started my AF career as a C-130 flight engineer with 1st assignment to Vietnam. I flew into hard bases and into fire bases taking rocket fire to resupply those on the ground and to take out wounded. I flew in aircraft that landed back at home base with hole in them where there wasn't supposed to be holes, so yes, I considered myself a member of a combat arms branch, not an enterprise. AK rounds at the time did not care about your branch of service.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2015 10:34 AM

2015-08-09T10:34:27-04:00

I considered myself a professional because we were a vital link in Operations. Aircraft and personnel safety is no small thing and I was proud of the job and shoot, I was good at it, I came from a rural place in upstate NY.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 9 at 2015 2:45 PM

2015-08-09T14:45:43-04:00

Without weapons, it's just another airline...

Response by SN Greg Wright made Aug 9 at 2015 5:55 PM

2015-08-09T17:55:24-04:00

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member What's enterprising about ICBM's? Are they generating income I don't know about? The taxpayers want to know! :)

Response by CH (LTC) Jim Howard made Aug 9 at 2015 9:34 PM

2015-08-09T21:34:50-04:00

When I served in the Gulf War, the Air Force played by different rules. They did not like MOP 4 so they created MOP "Alpha." I like the Air Force and found many to be far more professional than many soldiers I have worked with, but there is a tendency for even the fighters in the Air Force to have a far different attitude towards war than us ground pounders. As a chaplain I covered both Army and Air Force units and I will say that the Air Force probably saved my life. The Army just gave me pills and sent me on my way.

Response by TSgt Thomas Monaghan made Aug 10 at 2015 12:29 AM

2015-08-10T00:29:41-04:00

Arms

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 1:53 AM

2015-08-10T01:53:09-04:00

You some good points but I think it is just the mentality of the AF. Many people join the AF to avoid the other branches. They know they won't to the field like the Army and MC. They know they won't be on a ship like in the Navy. So by default you have a person that wants to do a job and nothing else really. What is bad is that they are allowed to do this when they join.

Response by AB Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 1:15 PM

2015-08-10T13:15:53-04:00

As an admin troop, I see it as both; because its hard to see my effect on our mission. On the flipside, I get to see our maintainers repair and launch jets for bombing runs gives me a sliver of seeing what my work supports.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 1:22 PM

2015-08-10T13:22:32-04:00

I agree, seems to me that the Air force is now ran like a Corporation rather than a branch of the Military. We definitely need to change our culture back to a Profession of Arms mentality. Of course that is just my opinion.

Response by A1C William Puckett made Aug 10 at 2015 1:25 PM

2015-08-10T13:25:20-04:00

I actually lost a little faith when they started the "Quality Air Force" what a joke. I was a younger Airman. I expected both NCO's and Senior NCO's to mentor. Mind you, I was stationed at Vandenberg AFB. No real mission, and the lack of leadership can really ruin a young Airman's career.

Response by 1st Lt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2015 3:33 PM

2015-08-10T15:33:16-04:00

By definition we are all under the profession of Arms, no matter how you look at it. When this country goes to war, all members of all services sacrifice life, time, and energy to the defense of this nation. The mentality of being an "enterprise" makes me sick even though I am guilty of it myself at times. I believe that the majority of the Air Force trains to be an expert in their craft, but not an expert in the profession of arms.

Response by A1C William Puckett made Aug 11 at 2015 5:35 AM

2015-08-11T05:35:07-04:00

I knew what I was getting into when I joined the Air Force. My regular hours were 7am to 4pm. I was always ready for anything. That being said, I did have a newer Airman come up to me very upset that he worked from 5am until 6pm with no lunch break. He wanted to know what he should do. I told him to go to civilian pay and finance and put in for an overtime voucher. I didn't think he would do that, but he did. I ended up with a letter of counseling. It was worth it though.

Response by LTC Ed Ross made Aug 11 at 2015 6:28 PM

2015-08-11T18:28:00-04:00

From this Army officers perspective, the USAF is neither an enterprise nor a profession of arms. It's more like a fraternity of airplane mechanics. :--)

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 12 at 2015 6:30 AM

2015-08-12T06:30:49-04:00

Hard to call yourself a profession of arms when you don't really arm or bother to qualify anyone other than SF or SpecOps with a rifle. I would love it if they made us qualify once or twice a year but apparently that is not in the budget. I have only been in 3 1/2 years so I will not pretend to know very much but it certainly is not what I was expecting. I was expecting more opportunities to get down and dirty so I'm guessing I should've aimed for the Marines or the Army. Although I have been looking at the Blue to Green program...I will always try to do my best to accomplish what I am tasked with but it certainly doesn't feel as "rugged" if you will, as I would like it to be.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2015 2:40 PM

2015-08-13T14:40:53-04:00

Interesting question for me. My first 7 years in, I was in a combat comm unit. We were always in the field doing training and exercises. Every month we had a morale "fun run". We all HATED it. But our unit was close. With few exceptions, everyone knew everyone else could do their job. Their was rarely drama in the unit, and gossip/rumors about other members was non-existent. I didn't realize how much different that unit was from the rest of the Air Force until after I left it.

The other units I have been in, everyone cares about their own job. Most do not understand, or care to understand anything outside of their own job. Very few people even know the names of people outside their own work center. Don't get me wrong, we always get our mission done. But that unit morale and cohesiveness I learned while in combat comm is gone, and the enterprise mindset is in full force.

As much as I hated the constant field training, exercises, and mandatory fun runs/events; I would gladly take them back in order to regain the comradery.

Response by CMSgt Scott Haskins made Aug 17 at 2015 1:09 PM

2015-08-17T13:09:04-04:00

I always considered myself an Airman first regardless of my AFSC. I have been retired 3 years and still identify myself as an Airman. I do believe we have fallen into an AFSC mindset and that needs to change. I have 3 children in AF Blue and have always impressed upon them that being an Airman is much more important than being an Intel Specialist, Logistician or a Nurse. I recruited many young men & women and I always let them know they had to want to be an Airman before I would let them go to MEPS.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Aug 17 at 2015 2:20 PM

2015-08-17T14:20:46-04:00

WWIJAA - Without Weapons, It's Just Another Airline....I'm trying to remember who I heard say that...

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2016 5:19 PM

2016-10-05T17:19:56-04:00

SMSgt Ryan Glosson,
Coming from a Marine Chief Warrant Officer, yes I definitely agree what you are saying. It is a sad state of affairs when our sister services have to knock down one of the elite services in my opinion. To be honest about this, if it wasn't for the Army, I would have never join the Marines. If it wasn't for the Navy, I would have never married an airman. If it wasn't for my second career as a Veterans Service Advocate, I wouldn't have met BGEN Cardenas, our MOH recipients, CoastGuard men and women. But most of all the United States Air Force for taking me and my family to Okinawa, Japan, Guam, Hawaii, California, Goose Bay Newfoundland, Spain, Great Britain, Saudi Arabia, Wake Island, Midway Island, Fort Wainwright, Alaska. Yes, SMSgt Ryan Glosson, we all should appreciate the fine professional services that our Air Force men and women provides for us all.

Semper Fidelis,
James K.