Would bum-rushing a shooter like Orlando be the best thing to do??

2016-06-14T11:35:03-04:00

I don't get it. 49 dead (not counting the shooter), and another 50 wounded. That's 100 people that got shot. If HALF of those people had rushed him, he would have never been able to shoot more than what he had in a single (or double, if he was shooting a gun in both hands) clip. Yes, people would have still died. But not nearly so many as did. Someone would have gotten to him as soon as his clip was empty, if not before. And then they'd pile on. If I thought I was going to die anyway, I'd like to think I'd at least try to get the bastard. Is it time that we start telling people to rush in situations like that? Would you?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 11:37 AM

2016-06-14T11:37:03-04:00

Not sure it would be the best thing but its damn sure better than waiting to get shot. SN Greg Wright

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 11:43 AM

2016-06-14T11:43:46-04:00

I am always shocked when incidents like this happen....I constantly debate 9/11 frequently with friends for the same reason. I know that fear can be crippling sometimes, and a lot of people fight or flight seems to be set on sit still. Me personally, with some of the situations I have found myself in, I have always been one to jump in. I have always been able to put myself before others, but not everybody is geared that way.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-06-14T11:47:15-04:00

Fear of death is, by far, worse than death itself. And there are many a folk where their urge for flight is stronger than the urge to fight. Also, if the shooter was in a location where he could not be rushed and/or if he could not be seen, then most peoples thoughts are just to run or cower and hide and pray they don't get spotted.

Response by Sgt John Skibenes made Jun 14 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-06-14T11:47:54-04:00

You don't have to worry about bum-rushing if you're always carrying. Fact.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 11:47 AM

2016-06-14T11:47:55-04:00

My husband and I were having this discussion today ... we came to the same mathematical calculation. Not to mention there were military veterans there.
We would have died trying.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jun 14 at 2016 11:52 AM

2016-06-14T11:52:11-04:00

It may work....but people need to understand that there is a good chance they may be killed or injured doing so. That's why we call folks who do that "heroes". They knew they were staring death in the eye....but went anyway.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Jun 14 at 2016 11:53 AM

2016-06-14T11:53:17-04:00

Rushing him no. The problem with firearms is people are unaccustomed to the sound. So it unnerves them. Would you really want bystanders to start rushing someone or anyone who just so happened to have a firearm?

No, the first thing people should be doing is finding some form of cover. Next, identify the shooter or at least the shooter's location. You wouldn't want to start tackling a law abiding firearm owner who hasn't fired a round yet. Next, if you don't happen to be armed at the time, find a weapon of opportunity. It stands to reason that the average person isn't used to throwing a punch. So they're probably not going to do a lot of damage throwing themselves at the perpetrator. Though if you hit someone with a chair or stab someone with a fork, not only have you done damage, but you've broken his focus.

Yes, a lot of people die running for their lives, but the natural instincts are fight or flight. Flighters are not going to have the same thought process as the fighters.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 11:59 AM

2016-06-14T11:59:15-04:00

This would by far be the best thing to do. Unfortunately, it takes a very rare breed of person to run into gunfire. It's hard enough to convince people to stand up to bullies, what makes you think it would be any easier to persuade them to run at a suicidal and sadistic gunman.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 12:02 PM

2016-06-14T12:02:14-04:00

I agree with all who have posted.

In the Army, the "textbook" response to an ambush is to assault into the direction of the ambush.

In the Corrections world, it only takes 5 personnel to take down an aggressive prisoner. The first one has a riot shield (a table would work too) to slam into, stun, and pin down the prisoner, and each of the other 4 personnel each control a limb (hands, feet).

With some clear thinking, this can be accomplished. The problem is that not everyone thinks tactically like this. Unfortunately it is time that everyone START thinking about this. From my experience as a Corrections Officer, as a Soldier, and as a citizen who carries, whenever I go into any new place, I am looking for exits, cover, and routes to both. I ALWAYS look at people's facial expressions, body language, and way they move for any signs that something is about to go sideways. I treat every situation as a potential crisis. It's not a carefree way to go through life, but being oblivious to your surroundings is a great way to find yourself in a bad situation with no options.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Jun 14 at 2016 12:06 PM

2016-06-14T12:06:48-04:00

People always say they would do so and most of us honestly believe it, but none of us actaully know how we would react in that exact "fight or flight" situation unless we live through it. Just think, how many people in that night club possibly asked themselves the same question after the last shooting but ended up hiding or fleeing instead? One of the victims was an OEF/OIF veteran and was just like many of us, yet for whatever reason, he was unable to stop it.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/06/14/army-reserve-captain-killed-in-mass-shooting-orlando-nightclub.html

Army Reserve Captain Killed in Mass Shooting at Orlando Nightclub

A U.S. Army Reserve officer was among those killed in the deadliest mass shooting in U.S. history.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 12:13 PM

2016-06-14T12:13:38-04:00

Look at it as reacting to an near ambush.
1. Those the kill zone immediately return fire.
~ Not gonna happen because you know ... gun laws keep them out of the law abiding and the law abiding don't usually take them some place where they're gonna get hassled and arrested. YAAAAY Gun laws work, see ... fewer guns at the site of the mass murder!

2. Take up covered positions
~ OK, now you have a couple of seconds or minutes before a-hole comes and shoots you.

3. Throw frags and/or smoke.
~ Don't have that but what weapons do you have? He has it in his head that he's the only one who will be attacking so anything that would disrupt his flow might jar him for a second. Sometimes a second is all you need.

4. Assault through the ambush using fire and movement.
~ Bum-rushing a shooter requires the coordinated effort of many and though it is probably the best alternative absent any firearms and other weaponry, it is counter intuitive to all but the most trained and those who still have more flight mindset than the fight mindset.

In the end, I'd like to think I'd go out ala Emiliano Zapata ... It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

Response by SGT David T. made Jun 14 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-06-14T13:07:01-04:00

Sure beats cowering in a bathroom texting. I guess I just think differently.

Response by MSgt Michael Bischoff made Jun 14 at 2016 1:36 PM

2016-06-14T13:36:00-04:00

That's the reason not everyone in the military has the a Medal of Honor. Not everyone would take up that mantle, it human nature for self preservation.

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Jun 14 at 2016 2:37 PM

2016-06-14T14:37:34-04:00

Who goes first?

Response by CPT Joseph K Murdock made Jun 14 at 2016 3:22 PM

2016-06-14T15:22:04-04:00

I assume the density of those killed and wounded was pretty high, but they tried to run. Who knows there might have been one or two who tried to stop him.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 6:46 PM

2016-06-14T18:46:38-04:00

Without seeing the layout of the room, it is hard to decide if that was a better option than hiding or bugging out. There is an old adage about bringing a knife to a gunfight...
It is hard to expect uncommon valor to suddenly surface in a situation like this.
Having said that, if I would have gotten hold of this Muldoon (no jokes about what I am doing in that venue, please), I would have ripped his goddamned throat out and beat him to death with his windpipe.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 14 at 2016 7:38 PM

2016-06-14T19:38:23-04:00

It is so hard to say sat here safely in Fort Living Room.

At go-time, I would hope that my "fight" would overrun my "flight" and try something. Anything. Even if it meant letting others get out first and I stayed to face the cold end. I am sure that most being civilians AND it was dark AND the loud music AND probably drinking/other... AND... AND... slim chances... ((le sigh))

God bless them all.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jun 14 at 2016 11:09 PM

2016-06-14T23:09:42-04:00

If you're close enough and have nothing to lose, I concur.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Jun 15 at 2016 12:21 AM

2016-06-15T00:21:06-04:00

I often ask myself, what would I do in a situation like this???
for everyone that thinks they would be a hero in the situation, dying honorably to save others and themselves, I ask you this, how long would it take you to just figure out what exactly is going on??
Have you ever been caught off guard?
gunshots in a club or action movie are first thought to be part of the sound effects....or, so as been reported.
as for the theoretical "good guy with a gun"....if I am standing in the club, and I hear gunshots, and you pull your piece in the name of freedom....you are probably getting tackled/pummeled by a veteran, who might not have totally assessed the situation...

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 1:27 PM

2016-06-15T13:27:19-04:00

Do something or wait your turn. The choice is up to you.

Response by CPO Amb. Terry Earthwind Nichols made Jun 15 at 2016 8:02 PM

2016-06-15T20:02:40-04:00

Without seeing for myself what could have been done, it is hard to say. What bothers me is where are all the chairs and tables that could have been tossed? One shooter.......... ?

Response by MSG Devaun Morris made May 27 at 2019 9:19 AM

2019-05-27T09:19:05-04:00

Situation dictates the action!!! How hard is it to kill 25+ people in a night club? Pretty dayum easy! Picture this, open area, like most clubs are, music playing and people dancing not thinking something like that could happen. Someone walks in with, lets say a handgun with a 15 round magazine, with extra magazines... gunman pull out the weapon and start shooting into the crowd. 5 rounds are going to go off before anybody takes notice. Another 10 rounds into a crowd that's trying to get away from where there shots are coming from. During the panic, people are goung to get trampled, pushed down, or not make it out in time. Gunman switch magazines and continue shooting into the crowd. So yes, it's pretty easy as you can see. In a school setting, they are taught to hide, barracade, and rush as a last result. Different dynamics, but the outcome can be quite simular.
Unfortunately, this is the culture we live in today. I would rather carry and have a fighting chance at saving my live and innocent people around me, than take my chances and not have one when I need it.