WLC, to be or not to be a requirement?

2015-06-06T21:18:50-04:00

Should they change standards making WLC a requirement to become an NCO? I saw quite a few NCOs in WLC and was a little surprised by how they got put in a leadership position but not excelling in the class. Personally I think WLC should be a requirement because it's a professional development school and you need this course under your belt before your ready to take on subordinates. Your thoughts?

Response by SGT Ronnie Warford made Jun 6 at 2015 9:19 PM

2015-06-06T21:19:16-04:00

What are your opinions?

Response by SPC Nathan Freeman made Jun 6 at 2015 9:22 PM

2015-06-06T21:22:12-04:00

It is now

Response by SPC Nathan Freeman made Jun 6 at 2015 9:25 PM

2015-06-06T21:25:57-04:00

I've met a lot of NCOs who were ghost boarded. You can tell the difference between those who worked for it and those who got promoted to fill a quota. WLC definitely should be a requirement.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 9:26 PM

2015-06-06T21:26:11-04:00

I agree that WLC should be a prerequisite for promotion to Sergeant. I went as an NCO, and I did not learn much, but that was because my squad leader had trained me well. However, there were many in the class who were NCOs and did not do well. They did not know how to march soldiers, or conduct counselings, or know which AR or FM to reference for various topics. Most of what we covered at WLC seemed to be aimed at specialists who were ready for promotion. It makes sense to have a school that teaches the first level of leadership. It is done that way for officers and I believe it will be very beneficial to the Army's newest NCOs.

Response by CW3 Stephen Mantie made Jun 6 at 2015 9:57 PM

2015-06-06T21:57:51-04:00

When I went through PLDC (2002) it was a requirement for promotion. First you had to be promotable to be added to OML, next your points, apft and weapons score ranked you on the OML. There were very few conditional promotions if you happened to reach your cutoff score prior to attending. PLDC challenged us. It was 30 days of lockdown and essentially basic training tactics while forcing us to use leadership skills that were taught. Land nav was not self correcting and if we failed were sent back to our units on the last couple of days. It should be requirement to pin E5 not to pin E6 like it is currently.

Response by SPC Angel Guma made Jun 6 at 2015 10:06 PM

2015-06-06T22:06:01-04:00

That is the question.

Response by SGT Timothy Rocheleau made Jun 6 at 2015 10:12 PM

2015-06-06T22:12:42-04:00

Is this the same as what PLDC was? Or is PLDC still a requirement as well as the WLC? I think PLDC was a good requirement prior to advancing to become an NCO. If this is basically the same course only with a new name then yes, it should be required. I didn't learn anything from my rotation in PLDC but it isn't because they didn't teach anything of quality or strong content, it was simply because I always applied myself to learning everyday. And we had a course called LDC at the battalion level that all those wanting to advance to NCO were required to take prior to going to PLDC. This was done to weed out those who simply couldn't cut it or were only going for promotion for the stripes and money. Over all of out together we'll all leadership type courses can be extremely effective in the training of our future leaders within the NCO corps.

Response by SGT Kevin Brown made Jun 6 at 2015 10:14 PM

2015-06-06T22:14:06-04:00

It is going back to this, slowly but surely (that is WLC being a requirement for promotions). You will see a lot of E-5s and even some E-6s who where promoted without the completion of WLC. This requirement went away to help fulfill slots throughout the various Army components to support both OIF and OEF. With the draw down in Afghanistan, more and more standards that have been laxed or that went away will be returning.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 10:25 PM

2015-06-06T22:25:38-04:00

When I went to PLDC back in 2001, it was the standard for my Battalion for all SPC that wanted to be considered for the promotion board to SGT had to be placed on the OML and then attend PLDC prior to making SGT. Now in some instances depending on the wait list, a SPC may of gotten promoted prior to attending school because their cut off score was extremely low but for the most part, only senior SPC and SPC(P) went to PLDC. Now in 2005 when I was a PLDC Instructor, it was common for SGT's, SGT(P) and SSG's to be in my classes due to the war and NCO's not being available for training.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 10:29 PM

2015-06-06T22:29:48-04:00

The problem with most early professional development schools is that the Army can not push leaders into the schools faster than they can promote. Which to me, stems into another problem. Promoting based on numbers instead of actually doing your job right...

When I went through WLC in I think 2011, I was a specialist. The rank I should've been. I found Staff Sergeants and Sergeants and Sergeants (P) in there. I think they should've been kicked out. How do you expect them to do the job correctly if they haven't gone through the school to be at that rank? We do not push Command Sergeants Major to be CSMs without going through the academy. What makes this different? Granted you are learning things you (should) already know when you get into WLC, but now you are able to be held accountable. How do you hold leaders accountable if you haven't taught them what they are accountable for?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 11:10 PM

2015-06-06T23:10:12-04:00

I agree it needs to be a prereq. I'm glad to see that the Army sees this too and within the next few fiscal years this is the way they are going. You will no longer promote to the next rank until you go to the NCOA that goes hand in hand with that rank. That way there you won't have SFC's that keep pushing off SLC but retain the rank which is good if you want that next rank you should want the responsibilities as well. of not you do not deserve that next step. No more handouts are a good thing for the Army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 11:21 PM

2015-06-06T23:21:21-04:00

I don't believe so. I went to WLC as a SPC, and I found I knew more than the SGL. When it came to ALC and SLC I found that I already knew and had performed all the stuff they were there to teach me. From what I gathered from my peers in the classes I was not even close to the exception.

What's worse is, having had good and bad leaders in the military has also shown me what leadership looks like, and NO NCOES has ever taught it. What NCOES teaches is management, poor management at that. True leadership is not something that can be taught, though it CAN be learned through good leadership and mentoring, this depends more on the individual learning than the leader.

From what I gather after 11 years and counting, there is only one course that anyone can call a leadership course, I have not been through it, but it's Ranger School.

So no, again, as WLC stands right now, do not require it.
But if you FIX NCOES and make it more about decisions and experiences and subordinates and less about paperwork and covering your own behind, then sure, make it useful and required.

of course, I went to Ft. Lee for SLC in the "Ain't no FREE CHICKEN!" era, so maybe I have a sour taste still...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2015 11:30 PM

2015-06-06T23:30:28-04:00

I think it should be. Because just like you I meet a NCO in the class who didnt know how to say the NCO creed which is a requirement in that course to pass. It was above my paygrade , but he still graduated with us. I think a person should go.through WLC before the go.to.the promotion board. Because anyone can be a good shooter and be a pt stud , but leading and motivating soldiers is something everyone cant do

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2015 1:27 AM

2015-06-07T01:27:10-04:00

l fully agree that it should be. I have seen NCO's that get confused by counseling statements and when asked basic questions by soldiers will just say "I don't know, go find out."

Response by SFC Steven Borders made Jun 7 at 2015 7:41 AM

2015-06-07T07:41:28-04:00

I for one didn't learn anything in WLC. I felt it was rushed and I did the three week corse. They would rush through the Power Points and the next day would be the test. The tests were super easy at least for me.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2015 8:00 AM

2015-06-07T08:00:10-04:00

Oh definitely it should be a prerequisite for promotion to SGT, which I thought had already been implemented. I personally did not learn a whole lot when I was there, but I was already serving in a team leader position before I went so I was squared away already, plus I love D&C and had it "down pat." There are E-4's that don't know much due to poor leadership back at their station, so it's a good course for those that need it before they are fed to the wolves.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Jun 7 at 2015 9:57 AM

2015-06-07T09:57:29-04:00

Yes, WLC should go back to being a pre-requisite for becoming an NCO like it was when I went through PLDC 25 years ago. We had the odd SGT in the course with us back then due to certain MOSs that were on the old STAR program where individuals were promoted automatically, but they were few and far between. I was a CPL at the time with no real grasp on "how" to lead Soldiers, I could D&C them, PT them, but really did not have the tools in my kit yet to be a leader and I learned a lot from the course. A decade later as an SGL and SrSGL it was my turn to pay it forward to the young leaders sent to me to learn the "book smarts" of being a leader. Now, while experiences will definitely vary individual to individual, overall the course at the time was still there to provide the building blocks of being a junior leader. It takes the "book smarts" of the NCOAs combined with the "street smarts" of being in the position back in one's unit and learning from the more senior leaders, that ultimately develop the junior leaders into being successful NCOs. I balk at the notion that the Ranger Course is the end all, be all of leadership courses; I had plenty of Rangers from 1st BN at HAAF that attended the course who felt it was beneath them to be there initially, but by the end of the course they had learned more than a little bit of what it takes to be an NCO, as well as having mentored their peers. For too many years while we were an Army at war, standards were lessened or in some cases even done away with in order to meet promotion requirements from higher and the quality of the training suffered. As we transition back to an Army at "peace", the Army is correcting itself and is re-implementing the standards that were in place prior to OIF/OEF.

Response by SGT(P) Kenneth Jones made Jun 7 at 2015 12:54 PM

2015-06-07T12:54:52-04:00

WLC should be a requirement before becoming and NCO. ALSO before going to promotion board. Anyone can be a board baby as they call it and study for a board but let them go through the training at WLC so they can learn what will be expected and how they should conduct themselves. Then send them to the board

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Jun 7 at 2015 8:24 PM

2015-06-07T20:24:06-04:00

While I do agree that it is always better to get the training before you are put in the position of needing the training, but we have to remember we are talking about the military and some times...more than anyone would like...mission trumps what we would like.

Response by LCpl Craig D. Pfautz made Jun 8 at 2015 8:33 AM

2015-06-08T08:33:44-04:00

WHAT IS WLC?

Response by SGT William Howell made Jun 8 at 2015 8:38 AM

2015-06-08T08:38:48-04:00

I was promoted without WLC in Iraq because they needed SGTs bad. Was I ready, yes because I had a great 1SG 1SG Private RallyPoint Member that had prepared me for being an NCO. I had already had time in my belt as a CPL.

In saying that, when I went to WLC with some other SGTs that were regular soup sandwiches. They had no business leading dogs on a walk, let alone troops. Even though I did not go to WLC before promotion I really feel like WLC should be required before promotion just because of the skills there will help people that had not been groomed to become NCOs.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2015 12:57 PM

2015-06-08T12:57:17-04:00

It should be a requirement, but if you have even a half decent NCO in charge of you, you will have picked up most of the skills they try and teach you at WLC due to your leadership showing you how to take their place.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2015 7:19 PM

2015-07-22T19:19:02-04:00

SGT Warford would be great to change the requirements but I feel it is bigger than chaging standards. As an NCO our primary duty is t take care of Soldier's and each leader needs to know what that means for him or her self before they can lead others. My point is that when leadership fails hpow do we come along side these Soldier's who are excited to lead and give them the tools to help them succeed.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2019 7:27 PM

2019-08-21T19:27:14-04:00

I see both sides. A class does help the soldier learn but experience can do far more than schooling. A class doesn't make a leader, but a leader does need instruction. I can say that I didn't learn much from WLC because I did have some decent NCO's that gave a damn about structure and teaching. I had more experiences in formation, inspections, presentations, etc. The structure that a soldier came from and their MOS are just two of various variables that create a gap or difference in experience and professionalism among NCO's. Were they Active Duty? Reserves? Army or NG? Were they in long or are they a hot-shot quick promote with stellar packets?
Not everyone can do paper tests. Classroom instructions. Inspections and formations. But put them in their element within their MOS, you "should" see why they are an NCO.
Personally I have seen NCO's that took this course and they still are not ready to lead and it's based off the individual. They could be too cocky with their ego, the mentality of "I'm an NCO so I don't have to work and I can tell you what to do," etc. They need experience leading and to have a good mentor to guide them in their decision making.
Also, I think stating a reason to need this course by using its generic description is bad logic. Saying you WLC is needed because it's a professional development school is just repeating itself. What can someone gain from the course to make them ready to take on subordinates?
I know this is an old post but I do disagree with how it was stated or viewed. Love to hear your thoughts back!