Will removing the GED/High school requirement for Army enlistment be a positive or negative for Army Readiness?

2022-06-27T13:44:45-04:00

Response by SPC David Willis made Jun 27 at 2022 2:00 PM

2022-06-27T14:00:39-04:00

My knee jerk reaction is to say it would be a negative. But if they pass the ASVAB I’m not sure what difference it would really make.

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jun 27 at 2022 2:35 PM

2022-06-27T14:35:51-04:00

Sure. Lower standards worked out so well the last time we tried it. https://bigthink.com/the-present/story-behind-mcnamaras-morons/

Project 100,000: The Vietnam War's cruel experiment on American soldiers

Military recruits are supposed to be assessed to see whether they're fit for service. What happens when they're not?

Response by CPT Lawrence Cable made Jun 27 at 2022 2:43 PM

2022-06-27T14:43:57-04:00

As a serious answer. I think we would maintain better standards if we 1. loosened the weight standards for initial recruits. 2. Quit being so damn quick to boot someone for "adjustment disorder". I think we should establish a permanent pre-boot camp for those that are over the weight standards or performed under a certain level on whatever they call the current PT test. Get them where they can pass and keep up, then rotate them into the next OSUT/BCT.
They did that when I enlisted.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2022 3:13 PM

2022-06-27T15:13:04-04:00

SSG Carlos Madden I have to say that I personally feel that obtaining a high school diploma/GED is one of the simplest steps in life... however, I also acknowledge that I had a positive home life that pushed me to finish high school and not all are afforded that.

With that said I still think it will be a negative for readiness. Too, with intent, better one self such as getting a GED or HS Diploma is a choice that a person has to make. I think is speaks to the resiliency and grit of a person. If they are willing to quit on themselves when it comes to education... I feel like they are going to quit on me when it gets hard... one could argue there ability to do the job based on physical standards and ASVAB scores ... but a person that quits ... no ASVAB score or push ups fix that issue

Just my opinion, but I would also be willing to give a person a chance to prove me wrong.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2022 5:53 PM

2022-06-27T17:53:34-04:00

Readiness????????????

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

What really showed me the light when I was a Company Commander was that I had over 50 trucks on my MTOE. So on paper, I could organically move my entire MOTE and personnel as either a driver or TC. Equipment seats matched personnel billets.

However, not a single one of my soldiers came out of TRADOC with a drivers license.

It was on the USAR unit to train quartermaster soldiers to use large shipping vehicles and warehouse forklifts to actually operate them.

88M billets were also not on my UMR.

Every time I stepped into my motor pool I was constantly thinking "this is where my soldiers are going to get killed".

**********
So in terms of "readiness", then no, my company did not have sufficient drivers and TC's to organically move ourselves as an entire unit. We could do an exercise here and there with 10 or so drivers, but no where near the at least 50 I needed.

GED's are not going to make that readiness metrics any better. Drivers training in TRADOC for PLS's LMTV's, HUMVEES, and Forklifts is what is needed.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2022 6:39 PM

2022-06-27T18:39:45-04:00

This is just a temporary thing, only open to FY22 end strength.
Remember that the very first job of an Army is to have an Army and that's why end strength overrules competence. Any squad leader will tell you they'd rather have five competent people than ten idiots, but any battalion commander will tell you that you can't drive tanks without enough drivers.

So, I would say yes, it's a good thing to lower the education requirement if that's what puts enough bodies in boots to meet the end strength for the Army to fight a two front war.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jun 27 at 2022 6:49 PM

2022-06-27T18:49:25-04:00

We've seen this happen before, after the surge. The attitude was the same. "Just train them, they'll be fine".
The result? 10% of Soldiers receive 90% of the attention due to poor performance, misconduct, etc...
Meanwhile, the other 90% that would have benefitted from all that mentorship and guidance don't get it, because there are only so many hours in a day, and leaders can only be in so many places at once.
As a result, overall readiness and competence go down across the board, and the substandard Soldiers eventually become substandard leaders who create new generations of substandard Soldiers.

Extra bodies aren't a help if they don't have an adequate brain inside them. They're a hindrance.
You know how one of the most miserable part of the military is leaders who can't write awards, counseling's, NCOER's or create training to save their lives, resulting in missed awards, training and promotion opportunities?
There's a direct connection here between education and performance.

Back in the day when all we needed was bodies to absorb bullets, education didn't matter. But in todays technologically advanced, computer driven, complex operating environment? A lack of education is a huge hindrance.

Response by Cpl Vic Burk made Jun 27 at 2022 7:50 PM

2022-06-27T19:50:23-04:00

SSG Carlos Madden There has to be some kind of minimum standard. I'm not entirely in agreement that the high school diploma represents much of anything other than they completed twelve years of school these days. The standard should be the ASVAB. Maybe if they didn't finish high school, they should be required to have a higher score than a graduate possibly. As a motivating factor they could say if you do not have high school diploma the only available slot will be the infantry. If they want to move to another MOS they have to get their GED first.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2022 9:37 PM

2022-06-27T21:37:21-04:00

I think we look at it as a measure to boost the force strength, but then add in a requirement to get a GED to advance beyond E2 or something similar. This would allow folks who are otherwise qualified, pass the ASVAB, and want to serve to get a roof over their heads, 3 meals, and some structure to set them up for success after service…all while doing what we need in return.

I like it if we do what we do - set the policy and enforce it. Could be a win…could be a flop. Guess we will find out either way.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Jun 27 at 2022 10:28 PM

2022-06-27T22:28:08-04:00

Yes it will. Many schools already give sub-standard educated individuals a pass.
There is no reason why the military should accept them.

Response by SPC James Neidig made Jun 28 at 2022 2:21 AM

2022-06-28T02:21:39-04:00

In 1979 I Enlisted In The Marines, Without A High School Diploma , Got My GED About A Year After Boot Camp And Served 6 Years ,Made CPL in 3 and Was Stagnant The Next 2 1/2 , Was Honorable Discharged At 6 Years, Then 4 Years Guard, Making SGT, Then Went Active Army Took A Admin Reduction To SPC, Got My “ P “ Then Got A Line Of Duty Injury and Medical Discharge, I Have Owned and Sold For A Very Good Profit 2 Business I Have Been Fully Retired Since Age 55 And Living A Comfortable Life.
all of That With “ONLY “A GED !
So YES If They Can Pass Everything Else Required To Enlist, Let Them In !

Response by SFC Billy Todd made Jun 28 at 2022 11:27 AM

2022-06-28T11:27:40-04:00

Can be good if allow to obtain high-school certificate in service

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jun 28 at 2022 1:35 PM

2022-06-28T13:35:30-04:00

Negative! I lived through this situation in the 1970s. Air Force, along with other Services , accepted recruits who didn’t meet minimum standards for education or test scores. AF set up remedial education programs. THose who completed the remedial ed tested for a GED. Then they retested

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2022 7:16 PM

2022-06-28T19:16:41-04:00

Personally I think it can go both ways. Some people struggle in school with classes but they’re really good at practical life skills and trades which would help in my opinion in the army. Yes there are a lot of people out there that don’t have those skills but I think it’s going to go both ways, but it’s ultimately going to be on the leaders in the ranks to teach coach mentor these folks and get them right. going to be a new leadership challenge
For all of us.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Jul 3 at 2022 12:21 PM

2022-07-03T12:21:53-04:00

USAREC just closed the program in the last 24hrs

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 3 at 2022 2:40 PM

2022-07-03T14:40:04-04:00

I knew many NCOs throughout my early years who did well without it. Most earned their equivalency while serving. As long as they are encouraged as part of their enlistment to gain education and they meet the entry standards then why not. We should never reduce the scores as currently identified for entry.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Jul 5 at 2022 12:03 PM

2022-07-05T12:03:57-04:00

REFER TO MY BIO:

I Left The Public "Lack-Of-Education-System" Mid 9th Grade.
As It Teaches Absolutely Nothing Of USEFUL Value After The 6th Grade.
Think About That For Yourselves..
After You Completed The 6th Grade... ...
What Did You Learn Of Use For Your Future Employment? ....Anything?
Kinda Makes Ya Wonder:
"Why Were So Many Years Totally Wasted
Sitting In A Class Room, Serving No Purpose What-So-Ever"?

Joined The USAF ON My 17th Birthday & Received A Great Education Through USAFI & NAVPERS.
To My Benefits, I Was Able To Retire, Comfortably, At 56;
With Absolutely NO Assistance Through Our Public Schools... Zero, Nada Damned Thing

Response by PVT Mark Whitcomb made Aug 20 at 2022 1:51 PM

2022-08-20T13:51:26-04:00

NEGATIVE!!! Not having a GED or High School Diploma just shows me your not able to "finish the job". There is no longer a draft. Now maybe the Army can have a 30 day school before they go in so they have a GED. That at least will give you an idea of what your getting.

Response by PO2 Jimmie Shelnutt made Sep 21 at 2022 7:43 AM

2022-09-21T07:43:22-04:00

Lower standards improves quality? Seems an oxymoron to me.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2022 9:30 AM

2022-09-21T09:30:30-04:00

It depends on the Army's readiness requirements. If we are WAY below our target numbers then it would be a positive thing. But if we are meeting, or at least coming close to our target personnel requirements, then lowering the education requirement would be a negative thing because we're downgrading the quality or our recruits when its unnecessary.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Sep 21 at 2022 1:37 PM

2022-09-21T13:37:10-04:00

I am going to make a strong assumption within that group will be many young people who do not know what working hard means.

Response by SSG Dale London made Sep 21 at 2022 8:38 PM

2022-09-21T20:38:02-04:00

I dropped out of high school at 17 and joined the army. I got my GED while in AIT. I later got my EMT diploma with City Colleges of Chicago, then my Associate Degree at University of Maryland, and then my Bachelor Degree at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland.
If the Army had refused me because I had no high school diploma, I reckon I would have spent my life in Helena, Montana selling shoes for Payless or flipping burgers at McDonalds.
As it was, I served 16 positive and useful years in the US Army and another five successful years as a British MoD chaplain, first as a commissioned officer and then as a civilian. I am now a parish minister -- none of which would not have happened had I not joined the army.
I reckon having no GED/High School requirement in my case was a net positive. But that's just my opinion based on 21 years military service.

Response by SSG Jack Scott made Sep 21 at 2022 10:24 PM

2022-09-21T22:24:45-04:00

High school is the minimum standard and is where it should be set! If not what grade do you want to enlist, 6th grade the 10th? High school and the Army needs to stop with this waiver crap! The Army wants numbers not Quality and that’s the problem! Not everyone Deserve to serve in the Military or should be!

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Sep 22 at 2022 1:36 AM

2022-09-22T01:36:01-04:00

Read the performance and history of "McNamara's 10,000"
This is a terrible idea, in the history of bad ideas that the military has had, this ranks up there, right up there with renaming bases because they upset the sensibilities of the easily upset and those looking for something to be easily offended over.

Response by SSgt Russell Stevens made Oct 15 at 2022 7:24 PM

2022-10-15T19:24:39-04:00

It will be a negative. What it will do is allow people in who haven't shown they can perform simple things like high school to completion.