WIC for active duty; is it appropriate for an E-6?

2014-06-25T20:04:39-04:00

An E-6 accepts WIC because his base pay is $38,000 and "qualifies". But after BAS and BAH actually makes roughly $70,000. Is this right?

WIC: Women, Infants, and Children

WIC is a federally funded program that provides healthy supplemental foods and nutrition counseling for pregnant women, new mothers, infants and children under age five. WIC serves over 9.1 million women, infants and children through over 10,000 clinics nationwide.

For a household of four (4) in Maryland, you qualify if your income is less than:

Annually: $44,123

Why do I think it is BS that an active duty E-6 (10 years) with two children (under five) and an unemployed wife qualify for WIC in Maryland?

BAH, BAS, and tax advantages are not factored into the equation of qualifying for the program. Granted, the base salary for this guy is $38,307.60 per annum, he is given $3,900.48 worth of Basic Allowance for Subsistence (BAS) and $26,604.00 of Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH), with a tax advantage of $5,083.59 because BAS and BAH are non-taxable income.

Total military compensation as calculated by the Office of the Secretary of Defense’s website, $73,895.67.

Quote by this TSgt: "I deserve it just as much as anyone else who uses it."

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jun 25 at 2014 8:18 PM

2014-06-25T20:18:41-04:00

I guess the government never thought of that. Thank God they have you to point that out to them. The bottom line is whether you think he deserves it or not is irrelevant. The government set a standard and he meets the standard.
A mother staying home with 2 children is not unemployed. She has 2 full time jobs that don't pay anything.
I don't know if you have children or not, but raising a family of 4 on a single income, E6 or E2 is not easy.
How much does it costs annually for a 3 or 4 bedroom house annually in Maryland? Why are you upset that someone is getting the assistance that they need to take care of their family. Or is it you live in his house and you know better than he does if his family needs it or not.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made Jun 25 at 2014 9:07 PM

2014-06-25T21:07:48-04:00

MSGT Bowden, I worked in Social Services for a number of years prior to my second (and final - I hope). Although I worked Child Protective Services, many of my clients were short of money and qualified for WIC, yet did not know it, so I showed them what they needed to do to get it. Their housing cost was deducted from their total income, because it costs a lot of money to live in a house. Others who lived in Government Housing were not required to list that as an income.

I fully agree with SSG Robert Burns, it costs a lot of money to raise a family. Not all programs require you to list all income - especially BAH and BAS.

When I was on ACDU I worked to get all of my Sailors who qualified monetary assistance like WIC and anything else they could get. Yes, that is a lot of money, but look at the costs incurred.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jun 25 at 2014 10:11 PM

2014-06-25T22:11:04-04:00

I want you to look at your own definition of WIC and realize what you are saying. You are saying that This E6 does not deserve "a program that provides healthy supplemental foods and nutrition counseling for pregnant women, new mothers, infants, and children under age five." And why are you saying this? Because the US Army has decided to give him an allowance to live in the place they moved him to which doesn't even cover a 3 bedroom town houses' rent.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jun 25 at 2014 10:13 PM

2014-06-25T22:13:56-04:00

Also do you realize what WIC really is? Don't confuse this with food stamps. They are basically getting a gallon of milk, a loaf of bread, dozen eggs, some juice, a box of cereal, 16oz of cheese, and some fruit. All of which are very specific to what kind of cereal they can get, etc. This is what you don't think these kids deserve because their Daddy is an E6.
They aint eating lobster dinners.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2014 10:15 PM

2014-06-25T22:15:49-04:00

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member I suspect WIC was intended to prevent this.

September 17, 1984 Vol. 22 No. 12 A Soldier's Teenage Son Kills Himself So His Mom Will Have 'One Less Mouth to Feed'By Donald G. McNeil Jr.

To the Army caseworker who was helping his family, Danny Holley was "something special, very responsible and caring, and a little shy." To the manager of the Marina, Calif. Safeway where 13-year-old Danny turned in aluminum cans for a penny apiece to earn grocery money for his mother, he was "a serious little guy, very diligent and polite. He definitely had other things on his mind than most kids his age—namely, making money."

But what really was on Danny's mind? That was the question the Fort Ord chaplain asked at Danny's funeral after the boy had hanged himself with a thin cord tied to a planter hook in his backyard while his mother and three siblings played out front. Others at the sad little gathering had questions of their own: Was Danny's death somehow the fault of an insensitive Army bureaucracy? Or was it the act of a lonely boy overcome by the responsibility he felt for his family—including kid brother Johnnie, 8, sister Erin, 4, and Christopher, 2—while his father was on assignment overseas?

Danny had repeatedly told his mother, Jennifer, 37, that "maybe if there was one less mouth to feed, things would be better." And, indeed, the family had been having a tough time financially since Sgt. Johnnie Holley, a 31-year-old MP, brought them to California from West Germany in June, en route to a new assignment in South Korea. Holley had requested the transfer last March with the understanding that Fort Ord would be his home base after a year's hitch in South Korea. He mistakenly believed that meanwhile there would be housing for his family within the compound at Fort Ord. He didn't know there was a waiting list of 2,500 Army families for just such accommodations.

In early July Sergeant Holley settled Jennifer, Danny and the others into a $750-a-month, three-bedroom house in a working-class section of Marina. Then he headed off to Korea, and the troubles mounted. A bank slipup froze the family's money in a savings account they'd had in Germany. The Army mistakenly shipped their car to New Orleans, leaving them no way to get around in a strange town. Moreover, the family owed the Army $1,300 they'd borrowed, interest free, to put up as a rental deposit, and Holley had spent virtually all of his $1,698 a month in salary and housing allowance getting his family settled. Still, said Jennifer, a quiet woman from Bangor, Northern Ireland who'd met and married Johnnie Holley some 13 years ago when she was a nanny for a family in his native Alabama, there was "always a little food in the house."

Whatever the real situation, Danny apparently began to paint a desperate picture in his mind. With little Johnnie in tow, he went to Fort Ord to request help for the family. Cynthia High, a caseworker for Army Community Services, returned home with them, toting three days' worth of groceries. She sent at least four more packages in the next month. Helen Walker, a volunteer in California's so-called Foster Grandmother program, helped out with the use of her car and taught Jennifer local driving laws so she could get a license.

But military families, used to moving frequently, are very sensitive about asking for help, says High's boss, Lt. Col. Martin Johnson. He adds, "They develop an 'I'll take care of myself attitude.' " And indeed shy Jennifer asked for far less help than she really needed and rarely spoke to her new neighbors of her troubles. Danny himself hadn't had time to make friends either. The boys on the block remember him only as "the kid with the bag slung over his shoulder." He made up to $9 a day going through trash heaps and construction sites for cans. Neighbors empathized and saved some for him.

Danny killed himself on August 27. The Red Cross in Korea apparently told his father only that Danny had died. When Sergeant Holley flew home he learned the terrible story from his family after finding TV reporters on his front lawn. "I had no idea what was transpiring while I was gone," he said. Family letters had mentioned that the budget was tight, but nothing more ominous. About his eldest son, Holley could only say despairingly, "I just don't understand. Danny wasn't the kind of kid who would keep secrets. Everything that came up, he would tell us or write me a letter."

Says Cynthia High, "It was probably a combination of so many things that we can't put our finger on what made him do it." Holley and his wife agree the Army should not be blamed. "Whenever we needed something, they got it for us," he says. "The Army takes care of its own," affirms Maj. Jeff Barber, a Fort Ord public affairs officer. "We can't expect to take a soldier into combat without gaining his trust that his family will be taken care of."

Since Danny's death, others have begun to care too. Thousands of dollars in gifts for the Holleys have poured in from all over the country. Sergeant Holley is hoping to get "compassionate reassignment" back to Fort Ord. But the family remains shattered by Danny's death. At a brief press conference, Jennifer said, in a small, tired voice, she hoped any good that came of this would be "that people realize there are people who sometimes need help, even if it's just someone to sit and talk to." Perhaps Danny might have been a "someone" if he'd had a chance to grow up. "He was just being the man of the house," she said, " 'cause Daddy wasn't there and he was looking out after us."

From People magazine.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2014 10:28 PM

2014-06-25T22:28:56-04:00

Here is why you are NOT wrong to be upset about it:
1) This was not who this program was designed for. WIC's stated mission is to "safeguard the health of low-income women, infants, and children up to age 5 who are at nutritional risk." Meaning people who do not have the funds to provide adequate food for their families. When people complain about the shear dollars going into "entitlement" programs, this guy has his thumb on the scale. When he and people like him, cause these programs to be cut by 10, 20, 25%, he can shrug because he didn't *really* need the money anyway (unless...see #3). Meanwhile, across town, another family is standing in line at the church soup kitchen.

2) I am sick to death of people talk about how they saw the person a head of them in line at the grocery store pay for a handful of items with WIC and then proceed to run up a second order of groceries totaling $200+ then drive away in a car newer than theirs. For people who care about these programs and the families they are intended to serve, it is important to point out these loopholes. We are hemorrhaging money as a nation and misdirected/misguided/misused social programs become a lightening rod for those seeking to eliminate social programs altogether.

3) The bigger concern I have is that WIC (in many states) asks you to disclose all savings and will DQ you until you spend your savings. So after 10 years, this guy has nothing saved up? I am suspicious that his situation is, in fact, more serious than he is letting on and that his remarks about deserving it as much as anyone is deflection. Is he up to his eyeballs in debt, does he have a sick parent, struggling with an out-of-state mortgage, what's wrong? He isn't in your chain, but I would be concerned that there is something going on here. If I knew his leadership, I might mention the issue but in terms of concern about his family and I would drop any mention of your opinion of his morality.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Jun 25 at 2014 10:40 PM

2014-06-25T22:40:17-04:00

Because if he lives in Base housing he will never see a cent of that money. And BAS it's for the soldier not the family according to regulation.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2014 12:17 AM

2014-06-26T00:17:29-04:00

I am SFC with 13yrs in the military (go look up my pay), I have 5 children at home and a spouse who has a full time NONPAYING job. The next ignorant person who makes another asinine comment about a stay at home parent CHOOSING to not work will only further demonstrate how UNPREPARED for leadership they truly are. Raising a family, no matter the size, is a difficult and daunting task. Do not judge others until you have walked in their shoes. My spouse chooses to stay at home because her presence enhances the lives of our children and allows me to focus on my career as the primary breadwinner. My spouse runs the house on her own, getting kids to 3 different schools (elementary, middle, high school) while caring for our 2 little ones that are under 5. She has ZERO support from ANYONE, especially now that I am deployed. She does all of that without being compensated, financially. If the government will provide assistance, you can bet I will be their to collect all that I am eligible for. We receive WIC but turned down the $7 in food stamps we were eligible for. You don't see all these corporations turning down their government benefits. If you really feel the need to point out an injustice in the world, why not focus on the wasteful spending the defense department does by giving the commissary a $1.4 BILLION dollar subsidy so they can have the privilege of providing over-priced products. My family saves over $25 using the local supermarket (HEB) and Wal-mart versus buying from the commissary. And the commissary often doesn't even carry the WIC items we are authorized to purchase. You have no idea of the minute details of that servicemember's life that led them to where they are today. SSG Robert Burns is 100% correct, WIC offers very little, but it helps. BAS and BAH are not pay, they are allowances, stop comparing what the military receives to what civilians receive, they don't have the same level of risk every single day they go to work. Military compensation will NEVER reach a level that is commensurate with what we are asked to do, but we don't do it for the money. Maybe this E6 is supporting his extended family back home in another country? Maybe he is an alcoholic?

Bottom line? If you don't like how the system works, don't rail against the recipients, GO FIX THE SYSTEM! Run for office, make a difference, educate yourself about policies and who is voting for what.

(Did I forget to mention this a touchy subject for me?)

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jun 26 at 2014 1:18 AM

2014-06-26T01:18:11-04:00

I just love it when people start picking and choosing what government assistance is good and what is bad.
"I did it without help from the government." Usually referencing food stamps, WIC, etc. But then they forget about tax breaks and all the deductions that they claim that are 1000 times more than the other assistance that they criticize.
Yea those are just fine, but you better not be getting $30 in WIC that I don't think you qualify for even through the government says that you do.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2014 2:40 AM

2014-06-26T02:40:49-04:00

It is what it is right or wrong. BAS isn't really enough to sustain a family,at my level BAS gets me A #1 at McDonald's daily nothing more. If folks need it than so be it....who am I to truly judge?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 26 at 2014 7:26 AM

2014-06-26T07:26:51-04:00

Here is what I am having trouble wrapping my head around listening to this whole argument/discussion. As one stated the state set a standard he met it, why are you so concerned with what this E6 is or is not capable of paying? You keep throwing that 73K number, now lets start talking deductions, car payments, insurance payments, since he lives off base, what rent is he paying, and any additional deductions. Does he get paid twice a month or does he elect to be paid once a month?

MSgt Bowden has he broken any applicable state or federal laws? Or is this just something that you are morally against?

Response by 1SG Jason Fitzpatrick made Jun 26 at 2014 8:12 AM

2014-06-26T08:12:46-04:00

Just because you read in on the website doesn't make it accurate. Do the math yourself and see if what is being said is accurate and then remember, that in the National Capital Region it is more expensive to live. Just shy of 74K for a family of four with two small kids in this region. I am sure that that family needs it. Daycare in the on post day care facility for that Stafff Sergeant would be near $600 a month, per child, so take from that military compensation that the website states and subtract $12,000. Hey, but now mom is going to work and bringing in some added income for the over paid family, right Master Sergeant..., in the worst area of the world to commute in, so she is going through lets just say 150 a month in gas, plus what dad is spending, because 2,000 a month rent isnt going to get you anything close to andrews, they are going to be driving, so lets be nice and say that dad is spending another 150 a month as well. 300 a month in gas means 3600 a year. subtract that from your over paid military member's pocket book as well. 2000 a month rent doesn't include utilites. lets include trash, sewer, electric, gas / oil and water. I will be conservative and say $400 a month. take another $4800 from that over paid military family annually, again. That is not including the necessaity for telephones, insureance, emissions inspections and food. BAS is calculated for the service member. That is approximately what it would cost to deat int he dining facility or cafeteria for the Air Force men and women reading this. It does not take into account feeding the family. So add another

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2014 1:39 PM

2014-06-27T13:39:50-04:00

First, I want to apologize if some of my replies were not in the right location or to the appropriate post. I've been having issues access RallyPoint on my computer and have been doing it solely from the app on my phone where you can't always see the big picture and formatting.

Secondly, as far as the argument of "is he breaking the law", I consider that a copout response. I actually never thought of the legal aspect of this debate, not even once. Last week the FBI arrested 85 people for WIC fraud; they stole a total of $18 million. These programs are rife with theft. It has become a right in their minds; a culture of entitlement. But no, I hadn't thought of the E-6 in question breaking any law. At the end of the day his family may only be accepting a couple hundred dollars worth of assistance, a drop in the bucket as far as the government is concerned.

What bothers me IS his integrity, or lack there of. The fact that he sleeps at night after accepting government benefits that were intended to support LOW INCOME families, albeit $100 a month or $1,000 a month. His wife, an RN, wants to stay home with the kids and that is AWESOME! But that was a choice they made. The standard for Maryland says if you are a family of 4 and make less than $44K, then you meet the requirements. He KNOWS he makes $73K and he KNOWS he can get away with only claiming his taxable income, so he chooses to take advantage of it.

My family accepted federal assistance after my dad was incapacitated and unemployed after being hit by a drunk driver. For two years all we had was his retirement check from the Navy. I got free lunch and other benefits because my mom COULD NOT work as my dad was in the hospital for a year and for years after that could not be left alone. I know what the program is for and I support the program. I DO NOT support a military member of this rank with this income accepting benefits designed for people like a single mom with two kids who makes $40K yet doesn't qualify.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 7:32 AM

2015-02-03T07:32:58-05:00

As far as I am concerned all enlisted should qualify. Now officers they start out making more money because of a dumb pos peice paper and a commission I say no they shouldn't qualify if they have 20 kids under 5.

Response by SGT Jonathan Williams made Feb 3 at 2015 7:59 AM

2015-02-03T07:59:19-05:00

I think it would be inappropriate to judge the particular family. More appropriately, it is the lawmakers the legislate the program. So if there is truly an issue, one should effect change through our democratic process. That is where WIC started, as a legislated social program. The same is said about VA disability, TANF, and other assistance programs. The program has rules. They met thresholds to qualify.

Whatever your personal opinion is about that family, I encourage you, before judging, to sit down with that family and ask questions about their personal business. Aside from that... the family is none of your business (unless you are the NCO or command). Your business is with the legislature or the executive. Talk to your lawmakers, protest, or advocate.

He does deserve it as much as the next person... he qualifies for a legislated program. They set the rules, not him.

IMHO

Jon

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 8:34 AM

2015-02-03T08:34:37-05:00

If a military family can qualify based on the rules set for the program, then more power to them. I won't judge someone for taking advantage of available resources.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 8:50 AM

2015-02-03T08:50:21-05:00

As of 1 minute ago this E6, who I have now met, to include his family, makes $73,895.67 and that includes BAH and BAS. Of which, only $11,907.60 is taxable income, which puts him in the 10% tax bracket.

Look, a single mom with 2 young kids who brings in $45,000.00 per year in Maryland DOES NOT qualify for WIC (she makes too much money to qualify). But, an E6 qualifies who makes $73,895.67 per year DOES qualify because only he magically is only taxed for $11,907.60 of his income.

Look, it's not right and it's not fair for the citizen (single mom of 2 in my example). He's a good dude and his kids are cool. But I fail to see how in this particular case anyone would say this is a good thing. I'm not looking to effect change and again, I say just because something is legal does not make it morally correct.

Yes, an E-2 in a similar situation is a different story, but just for kicks I used the OSD Military Pay Calculator and see that an E-2 with a spouse and 2 kids still makes $47,052.53 (including BAH & BAS) and of course qualifies because their base pay is only $19,738.80, but ironically, in the end, still makes more than the single mother of two whose salary is $45,000 and has to pay for her own healthcare.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 3:19 PM

2015-02-03T15:19:05-05:00

Some may not like my answer, but honestly, I feel like WIC and Food Stamps need to be WAY more stringently controlled on the civilian and military sides. The amount of tax money poured into these programs is ridiculous. A Soldier makes enough money to care for themselves and their families. They do not need the additional tax money to help them supplement their income.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Feb 3 at 2015 3:29 PM

2015-02-03T15:29:30-05:00

WIC is appropriate if your family qualifies for it. I don't care what rank you are.

Response by SrA David Steyer made Dec 8 at 2015 11:51 PM

2015-12-08T23:51:00-05:00

When I was living in Watertown, NY and went to college, I did an internship at a food bank and we had some army people come in and I think there were a few E5's coming in. It was YEARS ago though.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2015 3:05 AM

2015-12-09T03:05:30-05:00

When I was an E-4, I qualified for it. But after I got promoted to E-5, I was in a higher income bracket, so I did not qualify for it

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2015 6:40 AM

2015-12-09T06:40:10-05:00

I received WIC as a WO1. We needed it and it helped. We actually used only half of the coupons because they give you a lot. No money wasted, a good and responsible program. When my income went up a short time later (through longevity pay increase) we no longer qualified.

What outrage I have is that we have no problems with WIC using coupons and directing what we can and cannot buy with the coupons but you can buy 24 2-liters of Mountain Dew with EBT. I saw that one twice at Food Lion. Not saying what you can and cannot eat, that's not my place, but I believe that we should be able to say what you can purchase with our tax dollars, you know, like we do with WIC.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jun 17 at 2018 8:25 AM

2018-06-17T08:25:51-04:00

how many kids does he have- that is the determining factor.