Why is leave 'lost' if not used? Isn't this taking away YOUR money?

SGM Matthew Quick — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 02:43:07 -0400

Over the past few years, personally, I've lost an average of 20 days of leave.  (The 'why' isn't a part of this discussion...and I understand the temporary updated over 60 days policy)<br><br>I earn just shy of $5,000 per month in base pay (I know, I know...I am WAY overpaid) which equates to approximately $167 per day (rounded up).<br><br>Since leave is an earned 'entitlement', if the Army recoups the 20 days of leave I did not take, aren't they, in reality, taking $3,340 from me?<br><br>What are your thoughts about the worth of leave?  Should the Army (not sure of other services) reconsider and pay for unused leave or allow leave to be 'carried over'?<br><br>---> Important Note <---<br><br>I am not complaining about losing leave, I am simply giving a real-life example of the potential 'monetary loss'...putting it into perspective.<br><br>I know how to request leave and manage leave (some comments are pretty funny)...I choose not to take leave at certain times.<br><br>Back to the comments.

Response by SSG Shawn M. made Apr 21 at 2014 3:08 AM

SSG Shawn M. — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 03:08:01 -0400

I understand why you lose it. I just feel that if you are over the cap for one year they should pay you in whatever you are going to "lose." If we didn't have a cap on leave though some soldiers would just save up 6 months of leave and that would not fly.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 5:41 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 05:41:58 -0400

I believe it could make life easier if while "Use or Lose" was in place, the transfer of lost days to pay was automatic.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 7:05 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 07:05:09 -0400

Thats a very interesting point MSG.

Response by SSG William Sutter made Apr 21 at 2014 7:18 AM

SSG William Sutter — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 07:18:45 -0400

Leave that is lost is, or should be, a black eye in the chain of command. Leave is supposed to be used. Those that don't use leave are either going to get burned out or they are not doing their job in training others to take their place or not training others so the mission is getting accomplished without them. This is what is causing personnel with a large number of days getting saved and in the end getting lost. 

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 7:32 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 07:32:12 -0400

I think with deployments, train-up, schools, 4 day weekends we always seem to be pushing off leave till next qtr, when next qtr comes around, there is always something going on, something that would prevent us from taking leave. We should be able to sell the leave back.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Apr 21 at 2014 7:37 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 07:37:45 -0400

I acknowledge both sides of this issue. The days of leave are yours since you worked to earn them -- and they are yours by right (except for unusual extenuating circumstances). And they do have some dollar value. When SMs are not using leave, they are working and creating value for the organization. I can go on, and again I see both sides, but I tend to agree that the DoD should pay SMs for unused leave.

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Apr 21 at 2014 7:47 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 07:47:09 -0400

I have always felt that all Soldiers should be able to sell leave throughout their careers, not just a re-enlistment or upon transitioning out of the Army. There were many times after I became a SSG, especially in recruiting, where I ended up not taking any leave at all during a calendar year and only by the grace of a PCS move was I able to take a full month off. I honestly never understood the why-fors behind losing something you earned, at the very least you should have been able to sell back any and all days earned if you so choose.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 8:26 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 08:26:07 -0400

I didn't vote because neither of these options are good.  Vacation is supposed to be used!  You want people to take it on a fairly regular basis, and both of your suggestions would actually create an incentive NOT to use vacation as vacation.  Take a break MSG!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 10:10 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 10:10:50 -0400

I think there should be an option to give it to someone who needs the days. I have seen Soldiers who had to go in the hole on leave days just to take the required block leave period. But I also believe that either way it goes you are still getting paid for it. The only difference between being on leave and not being on leave is that you do or do not have to show up to work.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Apr 21 at 2014 10:12 AM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 10:12:32 -0400

I believe both that people should actively manage their leave and that they should be able to sell back their leave rather than losing it.

Leave is granted for a reason. It is to avoid burnout & allow people to de-stress. It should be taken.

Sometimes valid mission requirements interfere with that. In those cases, the Solider should be allowed to sell it back rather than lose it. I do not believe that they should be allowed infinite accrual of leave - the command needs to have a reasonable expectation of having a Soldier performing duties for X number of days in a month on average. Also, some genius would decide to try to accrue 600 days of leave for their terminal leave.....

I propose that leave balances be capped at 60 days. Leave balances in excess of 40 days trigger a requirement for the Soldier to prepare a leave plan, which needs to be reviewed by the first level leader. This COULD include selling back leave if it is not viable to take leave in the next 6-9 months. The decision to sell back leave in that scenario would need to be approved by the second level leader. More administrative than I would like, but a better solution that taking away the leave and the money.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 10:26 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 10:26:29 -0400

I am more in favor of letting it carry over. Yes, the money would be nice, but I think a Soldier would benefit taking the leave. Sometimes we work too hard and need a good break. Energize the batteries and get back in the game.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 11:09 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:09:56 -0400

Leave can be carried over to an extent. Commands also start getting questions asked of them when their individual Soldiers fall into that lost leave category. I think I've lost a total of 10.5 days over the course of almost 14 years so far. It shouldn't have happened but between training exercises, schools, 4 day weekends, lack of money to leave the area, and a general disinterest in taking leave it happened. When I re-enlisted back in 2005 I also sold 30 days back to the Army so I wouldn't run into that issue then. You can only sell 60 days total back. I think that is a silly regulation. Quite honestly, one of the best things I dealt with when working with a civilian agency was the concept of leave donation. They were able to take some of their hours that they weren't going to use and put them into a pool of hours for someone else to take who needed it for emergency purposes. The hours themselves had monetary value so it acted as a charitable donation. The employee also didn't go over their maximum allowed hours of accrued leave time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 11:34 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 11:34:44 -0400

While we can debate the merits of one system or another, and perhaps higher ups can give recommendation, Army or any other service doesn't have any say about this. 10 U.S. Code § 701 dictates leave entitlement and accumulation of up to 60 days, and the National Defense Authorization Act currently extends it up to 75. If you want to make an impact about this, contacting your lawmaking representatives is what can make a difference.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 12:17 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 12:17:51 -0400

I hate having use or lose leave since in my current position is almost impossible to take more than a week or so without making life difficult for another psg that will have to cover down for me, same thing applies to them too. Another option that could be considered is give leave days to someone that needs them, just like the civilians do

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 21 at 2014 4:03 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 16:03:31 -0400

MSG

Any comments a sailor (such as myself) would have regarding ARMY regs would be like comparing apples and oranges.

However, I have a queston that might help me understand how this could come around for you. Now, bear with, please - when I was AD Nav I came upon a similar situation - I was approaching use/lose on leave and facing a major deployment. The Nav had a method - you applied for a waiver. Won't go into the details, but I got the waiver - with the understanding that I would have to take the leave upon return of said deployment or the waiver would "go away" and I would lose the leave. So...if you had such a waiver...why did you permit yourself to lose the leave? Are you in such a billet in which you are such a necessary cog in the system that the world stops if you go on leave?

Just asking...cuz us sailors tend to get the dull 500 yd stare on our faces as soon as an ARMY type says: Army REGS.....

Response by SSG Daniel Deiler made Apr 21 at 2014 4:30 PM

SSG Daniel Deiler — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 16:30:49 -0400

I don't understand why one would allow their leave days to even get to that point. The leave program is designed to give us a break from our duties. To unwind and relax. IMO it is foolish to put yourself or your Soldiers in the position to lose what they have earned. Especially when a commander worth their salt designs their training calendar to allow for periods of less activity/training so that Soldiers have the opportunity to recover and take leave. Also in my experience there are 1 - 2 block leave periods scheduled during the year. No one Soldier is so important to their organization that they cannot take leave. A person may feel that they cannot take that break for fear of their duties not being accomplished in their absence but that shows a failure to train. What happens when you PCS? When an accident occurs. When you have to go to an NCOES or Officer training for several weeks? When you get tagged to be a liason or O/C at a training event? SOMEONE has to step in and perform your duties. Life will go on and people will adjust to get the job done if you take leave.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 21 at 2014 10:34 PM

SSG Robert Burns — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 22:34:14 -0400

I used to think the exact same thing.  This is how I look at it now.  Say every year the govt gives you a car to use for 30 days.  And for 30 days you let that car sit in your drive way and drove your own car instead.  At the end of the 30 days you can't say, hey I didn't use the car you gave me so pay me for the car instead or let me use it 60 days next year.  The fact is you earned the car, they gave you the car, but you just chose not to use it.  So they don't owe you anything.<div>That's how I see use/lose leave now.  You've earned it, they gave it to you, but you chose not to use it.</div><div>I still think it sucks, because I lost 8 days last year.</div>

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 12:29 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 00:29:34 -0400

If it were up to me I would have 20 months of leave saved right now. By the time I retired I would have 24 months, 26 when you add the 2 years of paid vacation I would take while I am on terminal leave.

That's why we can't carry our leave forward indefinitely. Too bad though.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 7:14 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 07:14:49 -0400

CW2 Walker,

I think that Leave is just a paid vacation. I have worked for people on the civilian side who will pay you your unused vacation pay, and I've worked for companies with the "snooze you loose" policy as well. What one company asked me was:

If you don't use your healthcare plan should you be entitled to what could have been payed on your behalf?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 10:30 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:30:27 -0400

I've not been in as long as some of the previous commenters, but on avg I have close to 60 days of leave at any given time. I recently sold 30 back during a reenlistment, and I'm still sitting above 40 days.

I know in my instances, I choose not to take leave during 'Block' leave, simply for the fact I see it as wasting leave days. 2 weeks of half days, 4 day weekends for both of them. You're really gonna waste 14 days when you really only gonna be at work for 24 hours over 6 days?

But, on the other hand, I coiuldn't take leave for nearly 20 months when I first got to my unit. Anytime I tried to take it, it was either denied outright, denied at a later date or got called back my first or second day on leave. Command team ended up making me take leave in the middle of a FTX because of the Fiscal year.

Selling back leave would be great, but on the flip side, being able to take leave when we wanted would be great, too.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 22 at 2014 10:12 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 22:12:33 -0400

I voted for "paying for unused leave."

There is such a thing as too much leave. However, if you do not use the leave you deserve the pay, in my opinion.

Response by SSgt Lewis Falls made Apr 23 at 2014 10:27 AM

SSgt Lewis Falls — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 10:27:19 -0400

They are not taking money from you as you get paid during the time you would/could have taken paid leave and did not. What they are taking from you is the opportunity to do so later. What I am am saying is you "earn" the same amount on a yearly basis whether you are on leave or working. It is your choice to take leave or not. Welcome to Corporate America where perks like "carrying over" or being compensated for time not used are being stripped away to give to the needy 1%ers in this country.

Response by MSgt Luis Almanza made Apr 23 at 2014 11:00 AM

MSgt Luis Almanza — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 11:00:13 -0400

The Air Force allows you to carry leave upto 75 Days in some instances, you can also sell your leave at some points during you career. I personally had about 120 days when I retired. BecauseI fell under the mission essential and they hardly gave me leave during my service I can relate to you question about getting your money for leave lost. The services need to manage leave to not burn out their people and should make leave available to leave at the highest level because that's the place that is needed most. This way you can expend time with your families and not worried about the mission.

Response by CMSgt Scott Haskins made Apr 23 at 2014 12:28 PM

CMSgt Scott Haskins — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:28:05 -0400

Limited choices! Leave was set in place so our service members would have time away to recharge. Selling it back gives supervisors the opportunity to work their people without break because they can always sell it back. How much do you allow them to accumulate? They have to use it sooner or later. There has to be a stopping point and we need to highly encourage them to use leave. Neither option is a solution.

Response by MSG Wade Huffman made Apr 23 at 2014 12:39 PM

MSG Wade Huffman — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 12:39:21 -0400

I don't believe anyone has thought this all the way through... neither option would benefit anyone for long and here is why... leave DOES have a cost (whether it's taken - cost in loss of man-hours worked; or sold - cost in dollars).. in the current environment, cost is driving the train. How long do you think it would take for Congress to begin to question whether 30 days leave per year is needed? Especially with service members banking huge amounts of accumulated leave; or selling large blocks of leave back for cash. I believe this is a prime example of "be careful what you ask for.... you just might get it."

Response by MSgt Vicente Sanchez made Apr 23 at 2014 1:31 PM

MSgt Vicente Sanchez — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 13:31:01 -0400

I see this topic from different perspectives. On one side, the government may say leave time is a right but ultimately treats is as a privilege. This view is supported because Command can and does pull people back from leave for varied circumstances, and other members lose leave when they fail to take it. On the other side, leave is one of our guaranteed benefits. This issue will continue to domino due to force reduction and consolidation of resources. Many units use cross-utilization as coverage, but often that doesn't always work. While on active duty I worked in a Headquarters capacity 0700-1500 M-F with weekends free. Since there was no incentive to take leave, most coworkers accumulated use-or-lose leave each year and either were forced or intentionally used that at the last possible opportunity. I could blame poor planning, but that view is myopic. There will always be people in positions unable to take leave, whether deployments or contingencies. There might even be some who will work 20 years without taking leave; statistically this occurrence will be very small. Still others will use their leave and be close to zero or incur negative balances. The simplest solution is to adopt a system similar to civil service, whereas leave is earned in hours, not days, and is carried from year to year. Members might approach retirement with large balances with the option to sell or use upon terminal. One option would be to allow members with large balances the option to "reinvest" those balances to add additional retirement percentage points (say two percent per six months of leave). The long term financial gain would benefit the member and save short term (i.e. payout) costs to DOD. Two percent gain in E-7 pay equates to around $100 a month. Either way, I agree service members should not lose their leave because a better solution has not been implemented. The current practice of limiting the amount of leave and circumstances one can sell is stupid and foolish, creating a lose-lose situation. Allowing members to sell leave whenever they want gives greater financial flexibility and helps reduce manning concerns. The current system is archaic, creating inefficiencies that extend far beyond just fiscal concerns.

Response by Capt Emanuele Corso made Apr 23 at 2014 2:26 PM

Capt Emanuele Corso — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 14:26:18 -0400

When I left active duty out I was released early because of accumulated leave. I don't recall exactly how many days it amounted to but it was a bunch as we were undermanned for a long while. There was no choice. So, you should either get the time or the money - you earned it. What's fair is fair.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2014 7:16 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 23 Apr 2014 19:16:57 -0400

Not sure if either are these are good options so I didnt vote but I have been in that postion. On my way to Hawaii I took 65 days of leave lost 18.5 and I still have 62 days on the books. I think the command should do everything possible to allow a Soldier to take the leave, I took leave when I could but in the end I still lost days. With the Army rolling back to 60 days in 2015 I'm already warning my boss to get me some relief in the IA office so I dont get stuck like I did when I was at Ft Hood.

Response by SGT Terrence Hiett made Apr 24 at 2014 12:28 AM

SGT Terrence Hiett — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 00:28:10 -0400

Cannot vote for either choice. I believe the Army should return to pre-deployment rules for requesting lost leave to be restored up to the max of 120 days. pre-deployment if your were either denied the opportunity due to leave being denied or assigned to duties that did not allow you to take the leave then you could request it to be restored. now the only leave that can be restored is lost Special Leave Accrual from the deployment or pre-deployment missions.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2014 1:40 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 24 Apr 2014 01:40:33 -0400

If the Army assigns a monetary value to each day of leave (as they do when you sell back leave) instead of losing it, those days should be credited to you monetarily. Taking it away seems unjustly punitive.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2014 3:02 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 04 May 2014 03:02:02 -0400

If soldiers are able to sell leave. PVT Snuffy that bought that 2014 Charger would be selling his leave and never take leave.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2014 12:29 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 04 May 2014 12:29:00 -0400

Why is there no option that allows us to agree with having a cap on leave without any further compensation? Leave is intended to be used and not stored.

Response by SFC Rich Carey made May 12 at 2014 9:45 AM

SFC Rich Carey — Mon, 12 May 2014 09:45:49 -0400

I did not vote. Why are you not taking leave? Is it because you already get plenty of time off from holidays? Or is it that the unit can't live without you? Or is the unit a little bit liberal giving time off resulting no need taking leave?

Look at how much time you get off for appointments, holiday, weekends, and or passes. I can see this both ways however, you are allowed to carry over up to 60 days (90 in special situations) What if you didn't take off any time and decide to take all of it as you depart the military, someone could have 600 days in a twenty year career, almost 2 years. So that would be a shortage in the unit that could not be filled for 2 years.

It would become a manning and finanical nightmare.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2014 12:55 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 May 2014 12:55:01 -0400

I wish I had a solution... I never lost too many days before. Only one time I did...due to an FTX I was not allowed to go home for a week on the 4 week long FTX.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2014 8:31 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 May 2014 08:31:30 -0400

It's lost because it ceases to be relevant to you at that point. If no one can handle your business so you can take your time off, you have failed as a leader.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2014 3:43 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 15:43:53 -0400

I believe Servicemembers should be allowed to carry over any amount of leave. Having said that, I just want to point out to everyone else, you don't "make" more money by taking your leave versus selling your leave. If you take your leave you will be paid 12 months of base pay, BAS and BAH for 11 months of work. If you sell your leave, you will be paid 12 months worth of BAS and BAH and 13 months of base pay for 12 months of work. So, either way you slice it, you still get 12 months BAS and BAH. You will make more money in a 12 month period by selling your leave and making the extra base pay.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2014 4:53 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 16:53:51 -0400

As much as I would love to be paid for unused leave, I dont think it would be a feasible solution to the problem, especially when the government is broke as it is. I think allowing leave to be carried over would be a good idea. However, that would not be good for some units.

Imagine a retiring Soldier having saved up 6-12 months worth of leave and taking terminal leave. That person would be on a unit's 162 for that whole time period and they would be unable to replace them. This would be especially rough if that person served as a particular MOS that a unit needed.

Response by MSG Martin C. made Jun 28 at 2014 5:24 PM

MSG Martin C. — Sat, 28 Jun 2014 17:24:52 -0400

SGM I totally understand you.
I was in your shoes until recently I will not fault no one but myself but after two deployments and the no more than 7 days a quarter DS policy I got behind taking leave. I would say that I agree with you and we should get pay for lost leave.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Jun 29 at 2014 6:15 AM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 06:15:06 -0400

Same in the civilian word. They give you X days of PTO, but you get so bogged down with work that you can't take it. Then the new year rolls around and they tell you, you have until the end of January to use it or you lose it, no payout option.

My first job after AD, they actually paid out at the end of the year for any sick days you didn't use as a bonus. That was cool, but like a fart in the wind, that benefit too disappeared a year after I started.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2014 12:35 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 12:35:08 -0400

Leave is earned, therefore I don't believe it should ever be taken. Allowing to accrue would, in my opinion, cause serious issues with the length of terminal leaves as it pertains to the deplorable strength of units. I think paying it out is the better of the two options, and would force commanders to be more diligent in ensuring leave is used as it would undoubtedly bring much oversight due to the implications for the defense budget.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 29 at 2014 3:15 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 29 Jun 2014 15:15:30 -0400

I would love to have 120 days to take leave all at once but that would be extremely dangerous for me. But it would be great to carry it over, some years I just don't use that much, others things come up and you just gotta take it.

Response by Sgt S.P. Woodke made Jun 30 at 2014 11:45 AM

Sgt S.P. Woodke — Mon, 30 Jun 2014 11:45:49 -0400

LEAVE is EARNED therefore if not taken...should be reimbursed...OTHERWISE the thieves in Congress will claim them...

Response by PO1 G. Leslie /Stiltner made Jul 26 at 2014 9:22 PM

PO1 G. Leslie /Stiltner — Sat, 26 Jul 2014 21:22:44 -0400

When I was in the Navy I kept 60 days on the books and used the 30 days coming for that year during that year. I accumulated the leave while on recruiting duty, I lived at home with my parents so that is what I usually used my leave on was to travel home. If I remember right you can sell back up to 60 days in a career time, but it has to be when you are PCS'ing. My husband on the other hand used it as he earned it. Having leave on the books was great because if you have a family emergency you do not end up in the hole. I think that if you are in a situation that does not allow you to take leave and you are going to loose it then you should be able to sell it back prior to PCS'ing. Maybe the standards have changed since my time but I feel that once every enlistment you should be able to sell back excess leave.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 8 at 2014 4:21 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 16:21:32 -0400

I did not vote because neither choice is a fiscal reality. While I fully understand and agree that leave was earned and should not be used, there are two reasons, as I see it what soldiers are not allowed to accumulate unlimited amounts of leave or sell it back.

The first, obvious, reason is that the purpose of leave is really designed to allow individuals to "clear their heads" or "recharge". I can't quote the studies, but there are many that show that everyone needs to "get away" on occasion.

The second reason is a fiscal one. The Army budget is based on a certain number of people in each pay grade, with each working the entire year, minus 30 day's leave. (Of course, the model includes normal additions and separations for those joining and leaving the service).

Hence, a military member is budgeted for 365 days a year, with 30 days of that being leave. If a soldier works 365 days a year and gets paid out 30 days leave (because he did not take it), the budget has to support 395 days of pay (365 + 30). Multiply that by the number of soldiers who don't use all their leave and you start talking about real money. The alternatives to pay that unprogrammed cost is to cut personnel or programs.

The budget contemplates a certain amount of "pay-out", which is limited to being paid at reenlistment for enlisted soldiers or at a one-time discharge/retirement for officers, with the limit being 60 days.

Simply allowing unlimited accrual, to be paid out at termination of service could put a big hit on the budget if the authorized end-strength is maintained.

Throughout my military career, I lost an average of 20 days per year for almost 30 years. I know it was dumb, but I was one of those who thought I was irreplaceable. Dumb.. very dumb. However, I find myself doing that in my civilian job as well, taking about 1/3 of my authorized vacation each year. Again... dumb, very dumb.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 8 at 2014 5:16 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 17:16:01 -0400

I'm glad you started this thread SGM Matthew Quick. When we were deploying back to back, leave was almost impossible and we all started racking it up. They allowed us to horde a good deal of it and that was a step in the right direction. As DOD civilians, we could transfer it, donate it, and I believe we could cash it in. If not, at least we had more flexibility than the armed services did. When I got banged up in Iraq and went into the WTB, the leave kept accruing and there was no time for leave. Once the decision was made to put me on TDRL they give you 90 days before you are a civilian. They only pay you for a certain amount (60?) and the rest went to the wind. I asn't a happy camper either. If we earned it, isn't it ours?

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 5:36 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 17:36:33 -0400

I did not like either option. I will tell you in the business world I have seen this situation handled a few ways.

I have been able to sell accumulated leave which would have taken me over my limit back to my company at a 2 for 1 ration. Which means I lose have the net worth of the leave.

I have also seen where the leave is simply taken down to the maximum level at the start of the benefit period.

I have always looked at PTO/Leave as a benefit and not part of my salary. Benefits are negotiable and subject to change at the employers preference.

I simply ensure I do not go over my maximum accrual so I do not lose. As well in the business world, time of is divided into sick and vacation at most places, though PTO is gaining ground. Vacation time has to be paid to you when you leave your organization, sick time does not. So if you are laid off, quit, retire, fired, etc. and there is unused sick time, it is gone.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Oct 8 at 2014 5:46 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 17:46:34 -0400

This is a difficult one. The leave system is designed for the individual to take up to 30 days per year (and encouraged to do so due to the stress of military life/duty). They placed a cap of 60 days to ensure that someone would not work for say 18 years without vacation, then take over a year of terminal leave (which you are still held on the books and shorting the unit 1 team member for the entire time). I do not disagree with the use or loose concept, however, I feel that they should recoupe unused leave OVER the use or loose period each year..... They would also have to re-write the rules that you can only sell back up to 60 days of leave in your military career....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 5:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 17:51:52 -0400

Unused leave IS carried over, however it is to no tangible benefit to either the Soldier or the Army for an individual to take NO leave, and accrue an indefinite number of leave days.

Secondly, as already stated, you remain on the Army's books while on a transition leave status, meaning that if you accrued over 180 days worth of terminal leave, your unit would not be authorized to replace you.... as you are still counted against end-strength.

That, and the military lifestyle is stressful enough that your leadership should be -actively- ensuring you take at least some earned vacation time in a given FY.

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made Oct 10 at 2014 2:55 PM

MAJ Dallas D. — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 14:55:44 -0400

SGM - You are on point - If a Soldier doesn't or isn't allowed to use his or her leave it should be cashed in plain and simple. I felt like someone stuck a gun in my back and robbed me every time I lost leave.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 15 at 2018 5:08 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 15 Jul 2018 17:08:39 -0400

Really Matt- you know that we had/have CO's that would really prefer to work folks without leave till they changed Command, just like we had/have troops who would do anything for extra cash instead of taking leave. It was always a struggle for me to get my leave in, but COL Porter( BG Bobby Porter) told me one day- "Take some damn leave and re-charge, before the other staff mutiny and run you up the flagpole by your neck- you need a rest!"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 27 at 2018 9:42 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Nov 2018 09:42:37 -0500

MSG, you are not being fair to your're family by not taking leave! Just kidding. I understand both sides, on one side, the Army does not want you to stockpile leave. As an entitlement, the Army offers you 30 days of paid leave that you can use as you see fit, so long as your command supports it.
On the other hand, the Army's intention was for you to take time off not use leave as a savings account. In the civilian world, you have paid leave days and sick days. At the end of a job, your employer has to pay you for any unused leave. The Army does that too, but at the end. While I would love to be able to use it as a savings account, the Army says no. It's a matter of a "work- life" balance. Take your leave and be with your family. If you don't take leave, your're not working enough. Lol

Response by PV2 Simon Smith made Dec 8 at 2018 10:50 AM

PV2 Simon Smith — Sat, 08 Dec 2018 10:50:56 -0500

Actually you can sell your leave days back