Why is it so hard for NCO's to Retrain in the Air Force?

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:24:00 -0400

If a NCO has reenlisted once or twice and all of a sudden feels like they need a change in scenery or feel like they would be more beneficial in a different AFSC, or just want to learn a different skill set, why is it so difficult to retrain? Where as a First Term Airman, who might not even be sure if they want to stay in past their first enlistment is given the chance to retrain with ease. The Air Force has to pay to send the FTA to more training not even knowing if they are going to get their money's worth before they separate. When you go to ALS(Airman Leadership School) you are usually given a little brown book. One of the sections in there basically mentions how important it is to broaden your career buy volunteering for retraining and special duties. Why does it seem lately that this is nearly an impossible thing to do? I know it is not as cut and dry as this, but it seems like NCO's should be given the same if not more opportunities to retrain.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Sep 27 at 2015 6:32 PM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sun, 27 Sep 2015 18:32:28 -0400

I know I wanted to retrain but I was in such a small AFSC I could not. The AF has limited opportunity for career changes

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Sep 27 at 2015 9:06 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sun, 27 Sep 2015 21:06:19 -0400

I would almost bet that downsizing, among other things, may be playing a large part of this

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2015 11:38 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Sep 2015 23:38:02 -0400

This happens in every service and is also the same for officers. Once the military has invested money in training us to do one thing, they don't want to have to do it again. On top of that, the longer we've been in, the less length of time they will get out of us in any new specialty. That's why there are age and time in service limits in addition to rank for many special programs.

Response by SSgt Dustin Coy made Sep 28 at 2015 5:03 AM

SSgt Dustin Coy — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 05:03:53 -0400

Because in the Manpower and Personnel office our motto is: Remember, we're not happy, until you're not happy...

J/K :-)

I heard once back during the VSB/VSI and RIF days for E-5's and E-6's of the early 90's right after Desert Storm (though I don't remember the exact source or the legitimacy of it...) that the Air Force breaks even on the initial investment in training etc, on the average troop once you've completed your 6th year in service. After that, up until the 10-12 year mark, the Air Force actually "makes money" (which really means they're getting more from you than you're getting from them...) After that is the push to get people out before they stay the 20 and end up drawing the retirement.

I don't know how real that calculation was then, or is in this day and age, but considering that they really seem (and did back when I was in as well) to want to provide one more carrot for FTA to stick around a bit longer. Once you're past that, the investment isn't as cost effective for "lifers."

Hopefully somebody from the actual personnel office can shed a bit more light.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 6:48 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 06:48:40 -0400

IT seems like the best way is to crosstrain into jobs that are critical/ chronic critical. As an NCO I gave a shot at going into a chronic critical job and when I was denied I shot the CMSgt in charge of that pipeline an email and it was fixed within 3 days. I'd imagine going from one balanced field to another would be tough. I've met several guys who commissioned because they felt it was the only way out of Security Forces, lol!

Response by TSgt Robert Mahaffy made Sep 28 at 2015 6:53 AM

TSgt Robert Mahaffy — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 06:53:42 -0400

I can completely relate to you situation. During my 20 years I submitted 13 cross-training applications to include 2 special duty assignments. It's not that those specialties wouldn't take me, it's that my AFSC wouldn't let me go because you had to be in an overage and mine (1C0X2) hadn't been in, like, forever. I think that the AF is missing out on utilizing some untapped potential.

Response by Maj Walter Kilar made Sep 28 at 2015 8:24 AM

Maj Walter Kilar — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 08:24:02 -0400

Downsizing, Force Shaping, and Sequestration have all taken their tolls on Air Force programs. Years ago it was much easier to retrain, go special duty, take a special assignment, get into a college program, or get into a commissioning program. Most of those opportunities still exist, but are much harder to get into or have been defunded temporarily.

Response by SrA Jonathan Carbonaro made Sep 28 at 2015 9:21 AM

SrA Jonathan Carbonaro — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 09:21:39 -0400

As a First term Airman I look at it differently.
When we first join the military, they have us for 8 years, 4 or 6 active. And for most cases may easily lose you once your active years are up. Once they get you to reenlist even once, they have you for good. How many times in your career have you heard or said if they get me to reenlist I'm just going to stay in?
The Air Force knows this. They know that most people after being in close to or over a decade will opt to stay in and get the retirement. So it stops to matter whether they allow them to cross train or go into different things.
This may explain why so much is given to First Term Airman, and why its in our benefit to be a first term airman as long as possible.

Response by SrA Matthew Knight made Sep 28 at 2015 2:06 PM

SrA Matthew Knight — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:06:37 -0400

It depends on what your AFSC is. I know in Weather I have always been told by NCOs that if I want to retrain I need to do it before re-enlisting because after you re-enlist in weather they look at you as a career airman. Weather is hard pressed in many places for NCOs to fill certain positions so once they have you as an NCO they don't want to let you leave. That and as others have mentioned with all of the money they spent on training you especially in this career field they really don't want you to cross train. It's getting hard even for junior enlisted to leave though now. To my understanding you can only cross-train to another critically manned career field.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2015 7:40 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Sep 2015 19:40:09 -0400

I spent the first 15 years of my Air Force career in Security Forces. I then retrained into Intelligence for my last 6 years. I was told that I could not retrain out of Security Forces and all that. But I did my home work. We actually had an overage of TSgt in Security Forces which was a plus. We were not per say critical career field, another plus. And the jobs I was looking at were critical, another plus. So, I was able to retrained. Here is some factors to look at: Is your career field a critical career field? Is there an overage or shortage for your skill level and rank in your career field? Is the career field you want to retrain into a critical career field? Does the career field you want to retrain into have a shortage of your rank? With all that said, talk with AFPC and get the answers. Wish you the best.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Sep 29 at 2015 12:52 PM

MSgt Michael Smith — Tue, 29 Sep 2015 12:52:56 -0400

At the end of the day the Air Force invests a lot of time and money into training you in your career field. As an NCO, you are now a fully trained expert as well as a potential trainer of new personnel. One would assume you are good at your job if you are an NCO. So why would the Air Force want to invest a whole lot more money into starting over again with your training? It just doesn't make sense to the mission or the budget to retrain you if there is no overriding reason to do so.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 9:43 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Oct 2015 09:43:52 -0400

I had no issues retraining. In fact, I was approved for it twice because AFPC didn't update my record correctly and gave me orders after I was selected for retraining the first time. Because I had orders, they cancelled my retraining. After I PCSd I applied again, and was accepted again, and retrained.
It's actually easier for NCOs to retrain in the AF. As long as there is a slot and you meet the requirements, you're in. You may need an ETP of you have an SRB or are in a short-manned field, but it's really not difficult at all.