Why is a better education system for children/teens and tuition/debt free college a bad thing?

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:02:46 -0400

Doesn’t this country deserve an educated citizenry?

In what way wouldn’t we benefit immensely from an improved education system?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 8:10 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:10:52 -0400

Who pays for “free?”

Response by CPT Zachary Brooks made Aug 13 at 2018 8:21 AM

CPT Zachary Brooks — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:21:24 -0400

Value vs cost. When college is free, what stops it from becoming another four years of "mandatory" education that doesn't really teach you anything important?

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 8:23 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:23:46 -0400

People never cherish and honor what is given to them as much as something they earn.

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Aug 13 at 2018 8:31 AM

SPC Kevin Ford — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:31:38 -0400

I'll get this out of the way first. When you say free, I assume you mean free in the same way as public school education is free. It is free while you are doing it but pay back the cost through taxes throughout your lifetime.

To answer this I'd first look at the current state of higher education in the US. Most of the trade schools have been gone or at best are culturally marginalized. Our system of community colleges and state universities has either gotten a bad reputation or become very expensive. A lot of the upper education is now done in private universities and colleges with a profit motive that have used the federally backed college loan system to jack up their tuition rates through the roof.

In short our higher education system doesn't have great support for trade schools and what public higher education there is that is good quality tends to cost nearly as much as the private alternatives. The good public and private schools have been able to charge very high rates due to the current federal education loan program.

I don't think there is little doubt that the US investing in the higher education of veterans returning from WW II had a huge positive impact on the country. The idea is good. But I'm not sure it is worth pursuing unless with fix some other things in public education:

- The federal education loans should be highly limited in the amount that can be taken.
- State trade schools should return with subsidized tuition
- State community colleges and universities should return to their highly subsidized tuition.

I think the first one is most important. While the federal loan program may have been well intentioned at first, it has been a major contributor to our current problem of unaffordable higher education.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 8:46 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:46:30 -0400

Why should the military pay you for your service and duty to your country SSgt Private RallyPoint Member
Don’t you live here? Shouldn’t you just want to protect and serve? And education is free, but your room and board, books, supplies and the professors time is not.
Anyone can learn on their own, but if you rely on a “System” meaning education system, there is a price to pay. Nothing is free in this world. We all pay in one form or fashion. In the military some pay with there lives, others pay with there sanity or lose a few lims. In school, you pay with cash and your time.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 8:53 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:53:03 -0400

It would be nice if everything in life were free.
A good explanation:

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 8:53 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:53:21 -0400

https://youtu.be/vCMlW0s68sU

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Response by SSG Jessica Bautista made Aug 13 at 2018 8:57 AM

SSG Jessica Bautista — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 08:57:20 -0400

Education is an investment in future workers. I have no reasonable explanation for why that's not desirable.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Aug 13 at 2018 9:00 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:00:15 -0400

It is not. All Americans should have the chance. It is unfair to talk about the past and how people worked their way through college. Tuition has increased far ahead of minimum wage or average starting salaries for early career college graduates. A part time minimum wage job could pay for college up through the 80's. Impossible today.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 9:05 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:05:00 -0400

If everyone has a Bachelors degree, then they become worthless and the base line expectation for simple and menial jobs. There was a time when only about 50% of Americans had a high school diploma, and at that time you could get a good job with that. If you had an Associates degree you could easily land an entry level white collar job. Remember if you give something away to everyone for free it becomes worthless.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 13 at 2018 9:05 AM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:05:16 -0400

SSgt Ethan Mace,
In your question, there are two topics of discussion: the education of children and teens; likewise, tuition and "debt free" college. Which topic are You most concerned about?

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Aug 13 at 2018 9:05 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:05:22 -0400

So, do you want professors to teach for free? Do you want colleges in tents? Colleges cost real money. A college degree is an investment in yourself. You should be willing to make it only if there is a return at the other end (in salary). If we made it free we would have thousands of gender studies degrees, French Renaissance Poetry degrees and a host of other worthless degrees.

Not everyone needs a college degree. That is a myth pushed by colleges to boost enrollment and tuition. If you want one and it is worth having there will be a financial case for it, period. Don't look for a free lunch, there is no such thing.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 13 at 2018 9:15 AM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:15:46 -0400

What I have an issue with is the ever-increasing education costs, seems like colleges and universities are too greedy.

Response by SGT Tony Long made Aug 13 at 2018 9:22 AM

SGT Tony Long — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 09:22:43 -0400

Nothing is free. Hard working Americans have to pay for the “free”. How about low taxes and self reliance in a country where we all can be responsible for our own actions?

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 10:03 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:03:57 -0400

Simply because it is never free.

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 13 at 2018 10:07 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:07:20 -0400

They never really appreciate it.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Aug 13 at 2018 10:09 AM

LT Brad McInnis — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:09:09 -0400

How many times do we have to go through this... Everyone wants better education. Free is never free. Someone else pays for it, or you do later on in taxes. If you ask these questions, have you actually looked at when the education system began to fail? Not the talking points, but the actual systemic reasons why the education system has failed. It is sickening that we are the greatest country in the world, and have one of the worst education systems (of countries that actually have one).

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Aug 13 at 2018 10:15 AM

Maj Marty Hogan — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:15:42 -0400

Higher taxes, more entitled society, watered down education as institutions are no longer incentivized to be better, students that will not be motivated to study because it is free- why does everything have to be free? Would it not be more prudent to teach our kids that tech schools and colleges led to a better life and teach them to work for it? Nothing gets easier as we move on in life. Might as well get them educated to that earlier. Not knocking the premise- just how to pay for it. I will use wild animals being fed in parks as an example....

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Aug 13 at 2018 10:18 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:18:31 -0400

I can think of about $21T reasons why. Keep the feds out! We in the state of TN do prove free tuition at state colleges and junior colleges for two years. Ask your state doesn’t do the same? Our TRI State area also conducts pro bono medical, vision and dental care two or three times a year. No questions asked of the patients. Institutes of higher learning are in constant competition for more plush surroundings and the continuous expansion of administrative staff are the major for the high costs of education. Seldom do I use HUFFPOST as a reference, but....

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4738584

'It's A Lie. It's A Lie. It's A Lie'

The number of non-academic administrative and professional employees at U.S. colleges and universities has more than doubled in the last 25 years, vastly...

Response by Lt Col Charlie Brown made Aug 13 at 2018 10:35 AM

Lt Col Charlie Brown — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:35:53 -0400

No such thing as a free education. Someone is paying. Also, we have in some ways an overeducated, underskilled population. Many jobs require skills, not more book learning.

Response by MSgt Richard Randall made Aug 13 at 2018 10:36 AM

MSgt Richard Randall — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:36:20 -0400

If you think education is expensive now wait until it’s free.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 11:09 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:09:20 -0400

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member Name one free product that has produced superior results?

Response by CH (COL) Geoff Bailey made Aug 13 at 2018 11:35 AM

CH (COL) Geoff Bailey — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:35:24 -0400

The notion of a free education in most other countries is not what many assume. In UK and it’s territories, students take tests in 10th grade which then determine whether one goes to university or learns a trade. One issue our country currently faces is a lack of skilled laborers/tradespeople.

Earning an education as well as the means to finance an education also teaches skills which free education cannot provide.

Another challenge we currently face which a free education would only exacerbate, is the study of fields which does not lead to practical skills or high demand career fields. The results of these degrees is high debt with no chance of employment. I remember reading through a catalog of degrees with a chart of both the median expense of the degree and average starting salaries for each degree.

Response by Sgt Wayne Wood made Aug 13 at 2018 11:40 AM

Sgt Wayne Wood — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:40:54 -0400

Anything that must be paid for isn’t a right. College tuition is out of control due to government involvement (guaranteed student grant/loans?).

Increasing enrollment doesn’t improve teaching ability.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 11:49 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:49:20 -0400

In high school, I was never a serious student. I often skipped school, and didn’t even want to graduate. The only reason why I graduated was because it was somewhat mandatory in my state.
So I graduated with a low GPA, not because I’m not smart, but because I didn’t cherish the free education I was receiving at the time.
A couple years later, I decided to go to college, and I had to face the reality of paying tuition out of my own pocket.
The thought of not letting that money go to waste made me work even harder to achieve my high GPA.

So the moral of my testimony is that sometimes it is necessary to allow students seeking a higher education to be responsible for their own tuition, because it will make them value it more.
However, I see nothing wrong with government subsidizing tuition fees for low income students.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Aug 13 at 2018 11:51 AM

SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:51:54 -0400

Why not free food? I like lobster and steak. I want free lobster and steak. I do not deserve it but would the idiots that are willing to pay for the free edu, please buy me my lobster and steak? I am cheaper....but I probably want something more next time. (What kind of desert are you willing to pay for!?!?!) /// Maybe those who feel strongly about free Edu will sell one of their houses...like Bernie, and pay for a scholarship. I have given 51 in the last 10 years...not alone, but my friends. And it is for a focus on National Security....sorry, not basket weaving. (What time is my lobster arriving? Could you speed it up!

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 11:55 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:55:32 -0400

“Free” virtually guarantees it will eventually collapses. I’ve never heard of a perfect plan for socialism.

Response by PO1 Don Gulizia made Aug 13 at 2018 11:57 AM

PO1 Don Gulizia — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 11:57:29 -0400

Depends on the definitions of “educated” and “improved education system?”

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 12:01 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 12:01:34 -0400

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member All I can say is “ you get what you pay for” bottom line. There are many ways to fund your education that will not place you in debt, or will only place you in a marginal debt. It is up to individuals to use the resources available to them to fund their education. If you hand out degrees like participation trophies they will become just that, it will be worth less than the paper it’s printed on when it comes to individuals finding jobs. While I didn’t like having to pay out-of-pocket in order to help on my education I found that between the Pell Grant, army tuition assistance, and some out-of-pocket cost I was able to attain my bachelors degree in less than four years. I am currently working on my masters out-of-pocket since the Army will not cover me until after I attend ALC, but I am in no way better about it because I learned some valuable tools that have help me not only with my current job in the military but will also help me when I retire out of the military.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Aug 13 at 2018 12:45 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 12:45:02 -0400

So I would ask, would this create a culture of people who go to college get a liberal arts degree and end up at Star Bucks as a Barista?

If we have a system that is set up adult education for transition into the workforce, as opposed to system where people stay in school to avoid work. An example : first two years Trade School/Basic College Level Course to prep you for a certain pathway. One shot after this point: You go forward to complete Advanced Trade School (business leadership fundamentals of your given trade)/Transition to completion of your first and only Undergrad Degree (with an option for 1 minor that is affiliated with your Major), Third Level: pathway for Masters/Graduate work or Transition into PHD Program.

Limits on the amount Colleges can charge for tuition.

Common Core Courses are universal Nation Wide, must be transferable to any other College/Trade School/University participating in the program.
Text Books Capitated and are the same across the spectrum/ and must also be 100% Available online.

All course must be given in order, and a school cannot hold off on a course for years. If the course is given as part of a program, it must have the course in the time frame specified, in that year, or it is substituted for an accepted alternative in that given year.

Community/Jr Colleges participating will have be allowed to have their students transfer into a higher level College/University participating in the National Program.

Service Obligation: Any student participating in this program incurs a service obligation to an approved Government Entity (May be Federal, State, County, Local, or a recognized & approved NGO, or community service). Service Obligation can be full time work, part time (extends the obligation out over time). Service Obligation should be a paid internship program for the graduate to learn their career field.

Service Obligation can be performed on the front end as well.

There is my 2 cents.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Aug 13 at 2018 5:55 PM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 17:55:03 -0400

I made a conscious decision to not set up college funds for my kids or grandkids simply because I subscribe to the no pain, no gain school of thought. Knew too many who had their mommy's and daddy's pay for college who had no concept of, or empathy towards, how some really must struggle to get an education. As Lt Col Charlie Brown says, there is no such thing as free education. I have no problems helping with costs but expected my kids and grandkids to work towards getting that 4 years of college, either through doing well in high school and qualifying for scholarships and/or physically working to pay their way. This participation trophy generation already has almost no concept of the value of hard effort towards a goal, and giving away an education only exacerbates the situation.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Aug 13 at 2018 6:43 PM

SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 18:43:54 -0400

We would not benefit by you having to pay more in taxes and giving it to students that want a free education to study gender studies. I would rather my taxes go to paying for a well trained military. And if those civilians want subsidized studies, they can join like you and I did.

Response by TSgt David Holman made Aug 13 at 2018 8:45 PM

TSgt David Holman — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 20:45:58 -0400

This is one of the times where I have to say more education isn't the answer. The problem is that we have programmed people away from much needed trade jobs. Jobs that keep the world running. The crazy thing is, many of these jobs are good paying jobs that require little more than trade training and apprenticeships. The people that were making the most money out of those (which is where the better education equals higher pay) were the ones who got the experience, and THEN went to college to pursue management/entrepreneur opportunities. Now we have watered down the college pool to the point where there are "pay to pass" campuses/classes, instructors are more likely to teach to the test and not the material, and the benefit of that piece of paper is no more beneficial.
Many Graduate/Post Graduate programs are designed to have pre-requisites that not only teach the base understanding of what you are going to be truly learning, but also involve classes that you will never use, and are extremely difficult, but they act as a barrier. If you want to join our club, you have to be able to prove that you are willing to put in the work to learn what you believe you have to learn.
That being said, I would love more of our high schools to look into a tiered program (with real guidance counselors, and aptitude testing) to guide people into things they may be better at. Some people want to be a doctor when being a mechanic is a much better fit (neither one of them less importtant than the other, one just involves a couple 100K more in student debt to worry about). Have the student finishing out the final core classes they need during the day and in the afternoon they would switch over to their technical training. By their senior year, they should only have one class at the high school, and should be close to their technical training, and should be ready to hit the ground running with their life.
Side note, we also need to start teaching some basic life skills in school, I don't know how many Airmen I have talked to that can't prepare meals, or properly do laundry, or balance a checkbook(or account, do people still use checks)

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 8:49 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 20:49:12 -0400

Who pays the bills, why is the PURSUIT of happiness all of a sudden a communal belief? How do you define personal accountability and responsibility. Do we not value the individual any longer? If people don't pursue their own happiness through education and hard work, who's fault isn't they aren't happy?

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 13 at 2018 11:10 PM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 23:10:20 -0400

I think there is absolutely no doubt that the country would benefit greatly from an improved education system. I also believe there is absolutely no doubt that the country would benefit greatly from an educated citizenry. Having read all the comments up to this point, I think we are not addressing some basics.

1) There are students sitting in class rooms that do not want to be there, for a variety of reasons. I have volunteered in the local High School. I've seen it. Teachers spend far too much time dealing with the 5%-15% of the kids that don't want to be there. Some are disinterested. Some are as bright as can be but the classroom just isn't their way of learning
2) Not a statement of fact, just an unsupported opinion: The interest, energy, and emphasis parents put into their child's education are probably the critical factor in determining what their kids get out of the school systems.
3) At some point, we need to let people make their own educational decisions. The kid who loses interest in school about the time of puberty (when it seems a lot give up), may be better served by getting into the work force for a few years and coming back to school later.
4) The government is great at one size fits all programs, as long as everyone is the same size. The populace is really bad at making everyone the same size. Show me a system, a government system that gives the flexibility to learn WHEN and HOW they will get the most from their time and for their money, and I'm on board. But I don't think a government system can do that, not even the Finns.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Aug 13 at 2018 11:14 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 23:14:37 -0400

I see what you’re trying to say, but it cannot be “free”. It’s a virtual impossibility. No one wants “free” because it’ll come with stipulations that will make it more expensive in the end, than it would’ve in the beginning.
I wanted to PCS to Ft. Hood (not by choice tho), so I talked to a few friends I knew there and visited the post. I learned about the “taxes” that go to education there that I was told were higher than in neighboring counties. The reason given was the area was a hot bed for football, and they take it seriously. Why should I pay for education “taxes” when 1. I don’t have kids. 2. My ex didn’t have kids. 3. No HS football coach should make more than the post CSM or the Garrison commander. Their “stadium” should not cost multi-millions of dollars when the barracks my joes sleep in can’t get a simple $5.00 bulb without having post maintaine have a collective cow. I’m paying for someone else’s child to have a coach who is “brand-name”, play in a HS stadium that rival some NCAA colleges. That makes no damn sense to me, but it’s not just a problem in Killeen. Other parts of TX are just as bad, and it’s. A nationwide problem when you have a sports heavy area where your child has the change to make every dream you have come true.
I’d be behind “free” college if it came with a stipulation of serving in government or military. You’re getting a “free” service while providing a a service in retiurn. There are lots of ways to serve without donning the uniform. Not all of them are suited and why sully the uniform? Peace Corps is an effective means to “pay back” while learning more than many will ever know who pay directly for higher education.
To make college “free” this is a “short” list of issues that would have to be solved
1. NCAA would raise all kinds of hell being boosters won’t be needed when everyone there goes for free. You just took away one of their biggest recruitment tools in scholarships both through academics and sports
2. Professional Sports would again back the NCAA up. If the student is at a school and there is no repercussion for mistakes, the NFL’s tow-three year requirement to become pro goes out the door. The NBA just started making it hard for scouts to get HS players. They have to go to a power school for a year before allowing themselves to declare for the draft. This would be problematic once again for the power conferences monetarily(no one wants that), and would cripple most major sports, plus salary’s would go down in pro sports. Why pay when you can get them much younger and tease them with quick contracts that is pennies compared to what they’d get after college.
3. This is a pro-business administration. Taking money from millionaires and billionaires won’t happen. The tax cuts show that now.
4. Betsy DeVos has already gone out of her way to promote something that was hated before both by the military and civilians alike...for profit schools and degree mills. UofPhoenix, Strayer, and those online schools where you get a degree for doing nothing but paying a few grand? It won’t go well for the students.
5. Mick Mulvaney won’t let this fly. He’s one of those who doesn’t care about the little man being he’s never been one.

The current system is FAR from perfect, but we’re not in a position to really change it, and in some ways, the current is bad, but maneuverable. Nothing in this world is free, and education to an extent is something that shouldn’t. At the same time, school shouldn’t cost as much as a kidney on the black market for a bachelors, and a PhD shouldn’t have you mortgaging your life AND making it so that not only are you mortgaging your life away, you’re virtually unemployable due to the level of your education vs the job you’re applying for. The same goes for doctors. We’re loosing them at a rate that is nuts. Not because we don’t have smart folks, but we are making the schools so unaffordable while not stressing what would make them succeed in the higher levels, at the lower levels. How many Presidents have had masters degrees? PhD’s? How many in congress have managers degrees? PhD’s? There might be a reason.